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Why women are not allowed to perform yajnas

Fire_Sacrifice1After careful consideration we had decided to withdraw this conversation from net. Because of several unreasonable and even hostile comments (mostly removed) which serve as a indication how little knowledge and culture those commentators have we think it’s better to avoid further insults and scorn directed towards one of the greatest exponents and experts in the field of Vedic culture and philosophy. Still, there were so many valuable contributions in the comment tree so they will remain here.

Comments

#1
+16 Sitalatma das 2013-03-22 11:38
It's amazing maharaj can get away with saying such things about women, elsewhere he'd be eaten alive.

Normally we discuss these things from the POV of shastra - are women allowed to do something or not, but here maharaj deals with women's actual qualifications.

Normally, to be polite to our opponents, we assume that they are truthful about their motives, but what if they aren't? What if women indeed want to do this or that to become a center of attention? What if they want equality because they want the taste of what is normally forbidden?

Shastra would not help here, it requires our won judgment.
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#2
+31 Shyama 2013-03-23 07:22
Here is something from Manu on the topic

“An unmarried girl, a youthful matron, an unread brahmana, one of small learning, one afflicted with disease, or uninitiated with the sacred thread must not perform the Agnihotra homa. For having cast such libations in the fire, these (unmarried girl, a youthful matron, etc.) shall go to hell, together with the person on whose behalf they do such fire-offerings; hence (only) a Brahmana well versed in the Vedas and in the art of performing such fire-offerings, shall act as a Hota (that is, offerer of the libation, or doer of the fire-offering.)” Manu 11.36-37

And,

“A Brahmana must never eat (a dinner given) at a sacrifice that is offered by one who is not a Srotriya, by one who sacrifices for a multitude of men, by a woman, or by a eunuch. When those persons offer sacrificial viands in the fire, it is unlucky for holy (men) it displeases the gods; let him therefore avoid it.” Manu 4.205-206.
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#3
0 Madhva Muni das 2013-03-23 13:13
What about worshiping (dressing up, cleaning...) the (life sized) murti of Srila Prabhupada? Is it apropriate for women to preform this service, since He is male devotee in sannyasa order of life in a murti form?
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#4
-28 JCdas 2013-03-23 14:47
Srila Prabhupada cultivated a very careful approach to women in ISKCON but Maharaj has kicked it out with all his personal views, stressing on a process not recommended for this yuga for the same reasons he explains herein.
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#5
-24 Bhakta Nibh 2013-03-23 18:37
@ sitalatma prabhu

Shastras will not help here , so the basis is not correct. Books are the basis. Shastras are the basis. Our own judgement ? is simply speculation and thats what is mostly happening in ISKCON. Hence if we do not have sastra as the basis we do not need a discussion. Be happy with your own judgement even if we have to disagree with shastra.
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#6
+28 anonymous 2013-03-23 19:51
A friend just told me how his wife who had been dressing the deities in New Vrndavana was politiced off the alter by the other women pujaris because everyone complimented her dressing of the dieties more than theirs. So this anecdote confirmed what maharaja said. I have seen it myself on numerous occasions. Of course I have seen some men like that as well, like Omkara in Vrndavana. But it is much more common with women. And in addition this type of mentality leads to seva aparadha which leads to problems in our communities.
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#7
-20 Govinda Dasi 2013-03-24 01:23
Dear Maharaj,

Please accept my most humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

I am grievously embarrassed by this article. Even if you have to maintain these incredibly obnoxious attitudes toward women in order to maintain your tapas of celibacy, still it is shocking that you would speak in this manner publicly, and in a written and/or spoken forum!

Srila Prabhupada would NEVER have approved of such arrogance and verbal brutality; you could easily have said the very same thing in a kinder, more gentlemanly way. And thus not alienated an entire half of the human race--i.e. women.

I think you owe this lady, whoever she is, an apology.

I do not know who is your guru, but you are definitely NOT following the same Guru that I am following, i.e. Srila Prabhupada.

Because of such kind of malicious and brutal behavior, many women will have nothing to do with today’s Iskcon. Devotee women even steer their daughters elsewhere.

Do you truly believe this is what Srila Prabhupada wanted? No. He told such men to go to the forest if they suffered from such degree of agitation.

Srila Prabhupada wanted, and wants, a worldwide society of Krishna Consciousness, for spreading the Yuga Dharma of the congregational chanting of the Holy Names of the Lord. Not a handful of angry, agitated men who sit on high chairs and foulmouth everyone else in the world--thinking they are God’s gift to humanity. And splitting hairs over who can do this and who can do that.

It is Lord Chaitanya’s prediction that the Holy Names will be chanted everywhere, so it will happen for certain. But perhaps because of attitudes and behaviors like this, the chanting of the Holy Names is now more widely propagated outside the corrupted walls of what you believe to be Iskcon.

Fortunately, Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon encompasses far, far more than what most people understand. And it will spread in spite of such modern day misunderstandings of what Srila Prabhupada taught.
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#8
-22 Govinda Dasi 2013-03-24 01:24
Srila Prabhupada wanted, and wants, a worldwide society of Krishna Consciousness, for spreading the Yuga Dharma of the congregational chanting of the Holy Names of the Lord. Not a handful of angry, agitated men who sit on high chairs and foulmouth everyone else in the world--thinking they are God’s gift to humanity. And splitting hairs over who can do this and who can do that.

It is Lord Chaitanya’s prediction that the Holy Names will be chanted everywhere, so it will happen for certain. But perhaps because of attitudes and behaviors like this, the chanting of the Holy Names is now more widely propagated outside the corrupted walls of what you believe to be Iskcon.

Fortunately, Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon encompasses far, far more than what most people understand. And it will spread in spite of such modern day misunderstandings of what Srila Prabhupada taught.

Srila Prabhupada was loving and protective of all his disciples, both male and female. He taught humility, not arrogance. He tried to teach us to respect one another, as Vaishnavas and Vaishnavis, irrespective of age, gender, or other material designations. For this reason, he told us to address one another as Prabhu, whether male or female. The attitudes you have expressed herein are the antithesis of what Srila Prabhupada taught.

Please forgive my harsh words; they are only intended to awaken you to the fact that Srila Prabhupada wants his dear and most important disciples, like his sanyasins, to behave in a spiritually appropriate manner. You have a huge responsibility. You are supposed to be representing the greatest Master of our times, Srila Prabhupada. If you act in ways that are contrary to his mood and teachings, you will be doing a great disservice to humanity. And you will eventually suffer spiritual disconnection as so many others have experienced.

I wish you well, and hope you will take my words to heart, and not become angry and vengeful.

Your servant and Godsister,

In Srila Prabhupada’s seva,

Govinda Dasi. ACBSP
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#9
+20 Murari Das 2013-03-24 15:18
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

This article was an eye opener. I think we need to discuss issue like this alot more. One thing that is certain is that the institution of family and marriage in ISKCON is in a very poor state. This may well be due to not properly following the gender roles as Maharaja is saying here.

However, most of us, including me having come from a non-vedic background are used to the egalitarian principles which have now permeated all societies and cultures, which try to do away with differences between men and women, young and old, senior and junior etc. Therefore when we are presented with the Vedic ideal (which is actually the same in many traditional cultures) of having different duties and roles according to gender we see it as something evil and discriminatory. ISKCON needs to begin training up the younger generation to be qualified participants in the Varnasrama institution. In one word this means - GURUKUL'S ! The real thing (not imitation ones which are teaching mundane school syllabuses nowadays). For this the girls need to be trained separately in their duties and the boys separately in their duties.

I for one however am convinced that for us to not only survive as a functional socially stable society but also as a role model, we have to adopt these Vedic practices which are actually meant for our benefit. Otherwise we will be condemned to go the way of other societies which now have horrendous crimes committed against women due to they being independent and not protected, more than 50% divorce rates, children brought up with single parents who have no time for them, teenage pregnancies (out of wedlock), adultery, unqualified leaders and heads of state etc..

Therefore the leader in society who presents these ideas, which by the way are actually Srila Prabhupada's teachings, is actually the real well-wisher of society not one who panders to 'modern' society's whimsical social structure which is totally unsuited for the practice of Krsna consciousness.

These are points which I have read in Srila Prabhupada's books and heard in lectures but somehow or the other are not being discussed and implemented now. I hope everyone considers these points I wrote here carefully and not take it as an attack but rather a call to action to solve all our societal woes in ISKCON by going deeper into the teachings of Srila Prabhupada and finding out how the perfect society he envisioned can be created.

Your servant
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#10
+12 Kasya Dasa 2013-03-24 17:06
Quoting JCdas:
Srila Prabhupada cultivated a very careful approach to women in ISKCON but Maharaj has kicked it out with all his personal views, stressing on a process not recommended for this yuga for the same reasons he explains herein.


Than don't worship the Deity, and don't do Yajnas for Them. Why bother at all? Or do it properly.

Personal view of sastra is there, where lies truth hidden in it. There is no fault in personal view. Like in your view he "kicked out SP's careful approach to women". Please study carefully, what our param guru SP wrote and said about the women and their mentality, before taking to sentimental approach to the subject, or the women, wthatever it may be. Don't take side, don't spoil the fun.
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#11
+20 Kasya Dasa 2013-03-24 17:19
Dear Govinda Mataji.

Now you owe an apology. Think about it.

daso'smi
kasya das


Quoting Govinda Dasi:
Srila Prabhupada wanted, and wants, a worldwide society of Krishna Consciousness, for spreading the Yuga Dharma of the congregational chanting of the Holy Names of the Lord. Not a handful of angry, agitated men who sit on high chairs and foulmouth everyone else in the world--thinking they are God’s gift to humanity. And splitting hairs over who can do this and who can do that.

It is Lord Chaitanya’s prediction that the Holy Names will be chanted everywhere, so it will happen for certain. But perhaps because of attitudes and behaviors like this, the chanting of the Holy Names is now more widely propagated outside the corrupted walls of what you believe to be Iskcon.

Fortunately, Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon encompasses far, far more than what most people understand. And it will spread in spite of such modern day misunderstandings of what Srila Prabhupada taught.

Srila Prabhupada was loving and protective of all his disciples, both male and female. He taught humility, not arrogance. He tried to teach us to respect one another, as Vaishnavas and Vaishnavis, irrespective of age, gender, or other material designations. For this reason, he told us to address one another as Prabhu, whether male or female. The attitudes you have expressed herein are the antithesis of what Srila Prabhupada taught.

Please forgive my harsh words; they are only intended to awaken you to the fact that Srila Prabhupada wants his dear and most important disciples, like his sanyasins, to behave in a spiritually appropriate manner. You have a huge responsibility. You are supposed to be representing the greatest Master of our times, Srila Prabhupada. If you act in ways that are contrary to his mood and teachings, you will be doing a great disservice to humanity. And you will eventually suffer spiritual disconnection as so many others have experienced.

I wish you well, and hope you will take my words to heart, and not become angry and vengeful.

Your servant and Godsister,

In Srila Prabhupada’s seva,

Govinda Dasi. ACBSP
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#12
+19 Narada Priya devi dasi 2013-03-24 17:50
Such good points Maharaja made. Especially: "So the greater the difference, the greater the profit. The greater the difference between men and women – the greater is the profit in their interaction."

Jaya! Bravo!
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#13
+22 Narada Priya devi dasi 2013-03-24 20:01
This is what I find puzzling: There are Prabhupada disciples who wish to make ISKCON a genderless, egalitarian society, but if you disagree, you are reminded by them of your junior position.
Why is this?
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#14
+6 Sitalatma das 2013-03-25 03:36
@Nibh Prabhu

Shastras will not help you judge motive of a person who raises his hand to volunteer for pujari service. That's why personal guidance by a guru, or in our case by senior authorities, is as important as following shastra. Simply reading books is not enough, we also have to conform with guru and sadhu.

Unfortunately there are plenty of devotees who think that if they can find a quote from Prabhupada in their support they can do whatever they want.

I guess it's the downside of the push to put Srila Prabhupada in the special position in ISKCON - people start to think they have personal relationships only with him and ignore everybody else. This is not vaishnavism.

Even Lord Chaitanya wouldn't do anything major without seeking advice of Svarupa Damodara and Ramananda Raya, and if He didn't like it He didn't go on Facebook in search of someone else to support him.
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#15
+19 Lila G. 2013-03-25 13:21
I have found the letter of Govinda Dasi to be highly offensive, not only towards dedicated Srila Prabhupada’s servant HH BVPS but to all Maharaja’s disciples and admirers. I can’t remember when I’ve seen such an arrogant and rude speech in ISKCON in a while.

With all due respect to your wonderful services Govinda dasi that you have rendered to our beloved Srila Prabhupada, I am sure he will take you back to Krsna because he is most merciful. BUT who do you think I (and other devotees of my generation) have been serving for last 20+ years doing sankirtana? Going out in winter, snow, wind, ice, rain, during summer on high heat, etc. By reading whose books have I become devotee if not by Srila Prabhupada! I have never met him in person, but by HIS mercy, through his books, I surrendered my life to him and to Krsna by doing best service in all three worlds.

So why SOME of you, direct Srila Prabhupada’s disciples are getting so puffed up, as ONLY YOU served, serve and will serve Srila Prabhupada, but the rest of us we know nothing, and we do nothing. We also read his books, we chant, we follow the 4 regs., and listen to his lectures.
We do book distribution, so why you are taking right, on account that you were his servant for x amount of time, or cooked for him (and all that by HIS mercy don’t forget), , that you have right to put yourself so above of all other devotees, and even above some of your God-brothers (HH BVPS), and looking down upon us, smashing Maharaja here publicly in such a hysterical and rude way. That is beyond my imagination, as if you know everything, and your word is last pramana. Why? Because you think you are great and better than others, because you cooked for Srila Prabhupada so you know everything. Did SP treat you as you are treating us here now? Did he ever put you down, as you are doing to us by such a comment? He didn’t. It means you have put yourself even above him! You took right to slap and spit into our face without speaking any philosophy, but on a basis of your bad day, and womanly weakness (which is not so pretty as we could see).

The culmination of your, I don’t know what to call it, was to question Maharaja who his guru is? So much arrogance, and pride. I feel sorry for you and I feel so terrible that I have to tell you all these things, but I felt so much pain while reading your offensive comment. So proud to be a senior devotee. It seems that many senior matas, sorry, “Prabhus, Prabhvis” (as you women demand to be called prabhu, and not mata- see again! No humility, as if mata is inferior title, but what’s the point to explain to less intelligent gender anyway), so some of you senior women in our movement are the major root of all arguments and problems and controversies that we face in ISKCON. Because you never learned humility and respect. Instead you demand it from others.

continued...
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#16
+21 Lila G. 2013-03-25 13:23
part 2

Maharaja is an exalted vaisnava and a genuine guide in our ISKCON. Whatever he explained here is pure knowledge and truth. As a woman, I didn’t find a single word or a statement he said to be offensive. He was right, and actually so polite and mild in describing the nature of women. He was so cultured that he even didn’t mention how hysterical every woman is in her PMS every month! We are real monsters during PMS. After PMS women have to fight period of menopause (again hysteria) which goes on for years. So what is our qualification to push ourselves to do men’s duties? We have no mental and emotional capacity to handle things that any man can do, due to our emotional and mental weakness. What to speak of being less intelligent.
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#17
+4 Lila G. 2013-03-25 13:26
Quoting Narada Priya devi dasi:
Such good points Maharaja made. Especially: "So the greater the difference, the greater the profit. The greater the difference between men and women – the greater is the profit in their interaction."

Jaya! Bravo!



As the French say "vive la différence."
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#18
+3 Sitalatma das 2013-03-26 04:14
Quoting Narada Priya devi dasi:
This is what I find puzzling: There are Prabhupada disciples who wish to make ISKCON a genderless, egalitarian society, but if you disagree, you are reminded by them of your junior position.
Why is this?


Actually, it's our fault if we have to be reminded of our junior position. Being junior and subservient to everybody should be our default state.

Whatever senior devotees and Prabhupada's disciples do, we should not argue with them even if we are right, even if in private. Srila Jiva Goswami was banished from Vrindavana for doing just that.

Unless we are in the position of authority to correct other people, it's not our business. Krishna is in the heart of every living being, let Him control the world.

Otherwise I like your observation - lots of people who strive for equality subconsciously project themselves as superior, it's not only in ISKCON.

Having said that, I think we should all stand up to protect reputation and dignity of our gurus if they are offended, even at the risk of personal ruin.
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#19
+15 Giri Hariharan 2013-03-26 10:30
Tough to find such straight speak nowadays in "politically correct" ISKCON ! All glories to His Holiness Bhaktividyapurna Swami !!! All glories to Srila Prabhupada !!!
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#20
-18 Jayadevananda108@hotmail.com 2013-03-26 10:58
>Lila G.

Mataji, it seems you missed the point of Govinda dasi's comment. She addressed the MANNER in which Maharaj spoke in a public forum. That you are not offended by his approach is unusual, since most others are, and as a result of this public expression he may have become unwelcome in many other assemblies.

She asked that he speak in a "kinder and more gentlemanly way" as would befit a sanyasi, "an important representative" of Srila Prabhupada, who never spoke to anyone in such a manner.

To be a follower of any guru, it is expected that one would speak as he would speak. Srila Prabhupada always spoke tactfully and respectfully in all circumstances, and thus did not alienate even puffed-up scholars and scientists. He spoke in a kind and gentlemanly way, not punishing or cruel, so that even those who disagreed with him still came to respect him.
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#21
+13 Rishi das 2013-03-26 12:57
@

I don’t know whom these “most others are?” It seems that it is actually her comments that were not appreciated not his.

Also the article is a transcription of a conversation, it doesn’t contain all the non-verbals such as volume, voice intonation etc. which would allow one to understand the mood of presentation. I have heard many of BVPS classes and always find his presentations very cultured and highly edifying. I think that Govinda dasi completely over reacted, and you seem to be doing the same.

We don’t know who the lady he was responding to is or what their relationship is. Is she a disciple, student, guest etc.? And most of all we don’t know how she took it. But you and Govinda Dasi, without being there are jumping to conclusions, and assuming the worst. That she was emotionally traumatized. How ridiculous. By what? I found absolutely nothing wrong with what or how he said it. It was refreshingly strait forward, something that Srila Prabhupada did teach us to be.

BVPS will always be welcome in our community. Only places in the obscure corners of the universe may not be fortunate enough to get his association. He is an actual brahmana and thus speaks the essential truth without fear. That is the quality of a devotee “fearlessness.” Now-a-days most people are afraid to say anything lest members of the PC “thought police” try to shut them down. “Oh, what you said hurt such and such persons feelings.”

Also you obviously have not heard Srila Prabhupada speak either in person or in his lectures and conversations and thus have made a mythological version of Srila Prabhupada. I have heard a talk of Srila Prabhupada at the 1977 Bombay Pandal program where he is shouting down a person who disagreed with him. This was not a singularity. In April 1977 he attacked the followers of Sivananda and Cinmayanananda and used very strong language and shouting at them from his deathbed. Srila Prabhupada himself said that his Godbrothers said his preaching was the “chopper” style –“Gita in one hand, chopper in the other.” You have made a false, mythological, effete paper Srila Prabhupada that never existed and then say that we have to be like that. I categorically reject this nonsense. Srila Prabhupada told us that once when some of his godbrothers openly criticized rascal gurus like Vivekananda and Ramakrsna that BSST congratulated them for cutting through the ignorance with the sword of knowledge. Remember we come in the line of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura –acarya kesari— the fearless lion guru – not a limp wristed fop.
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#22
+19 Rishi das 2013-03-26 12:58
part 2

Remember a vaisnava is sometimes like a rose and sometimes like a thunderbolt. Not some stereotyped mayavadi sadhu with a plastic smile glued to his face.

I am not encouraging barbaric behavior but I will not be muzzled by those who favor sweetness at the expense of truth. Some things just can not be said in a sweet way tactful way.
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#23
+17 Rishi das 2013-03-26 13:26
@

Srila Prabhupada was not a timid milquetoast who never spoke strongly. Sometimes he was like a rose and at others like a thunderbolt.



'One day Prabhupäda and Gaurasundara were discussing philosophy while Govinda dasi spent a long time in the kitchen washing pots and dishes. The noise of her cleaning carried into Prabhupada's room. "She has this cleanliness disease," Prabhupada warned. "My wife and daughter also had it. You should catch it while it is not developed. Otherwise it will get worse. I caught my daughter once-she was washing the electric sockets by splashing water into them. And I told her, "Do not ever do this again. If you do this, I will kill you!' So she promised she would never do it again."'

Prabhupada Lila 7.4 (A Summer in Montreal, 1968)


One time in Dec 1976 at the Hyderabad farm after a fiasco of a preaching program where the disciples messed up big time. Srila Prabhupada came for the morning program only to find the temple room filthy and the devotees just waking up. Srila Prabhupada complained that the floor was dirty. Patita Pavana Prabhu took out a small pen knife and started scrapping the floor with it. Srila Prabhupada, who was still angry from the previous catastrophe, looked at his disciple foolishly scraping the floor with a small knife and shouted at him "take that knife and cut your throat." (That was an instruction the disciple should not follow.) This episode was witnessed by dozens of devotees who where there and told to me by several of them including Patita Pavana Prabhu himself.

If you really want to hear Srila Prabhupada steamed up get a copy of the conversations at the Hyderabad farm , Dec 10 1976. He is so angry with his disciples complete incompetence and the ruining of a preaching program that smoke is coming out of the speakers.

Whether he is speaking sweetly or strongly both are for the benefit of the listener. In fact Srila Prabhupada said he most of all cherished the time when he was chastised by his guru maharaja as it was the greatest mercy.
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#24
+14 Rishi das 2013-03-26 14:01
Quoting Sitalatma das:
Quoting Narada Priya devi dasi:
This is what I find puzzling: There are Prabhupada disciples who wish to make ISKCON a genderless, egalitarian society, but if you disagree, you are reminded by them of your junior position.
Why is this?


Actually, it's our fault if we have to be reminded of our junior position. Being junior and subservient to everybody should be our default state.

Whatever senior devotees and Prabhupada's disciples do, we should not argue with them even if we are right, even if in private. Srila Jiva Goswami was banished from Vrindavana for doing just that.

Unless we are in the position of authority to correct other people, it's not our business. Krishna is in the heart of every living being, let Him control the world.

Otherwise I like your observation - lots of people who strive for equality subconsciously project themselves as superior, it's not only in ISKCON.

Having said that, I think we should all stand up to protect reputation and dignity of our gurus if they are offended, even at the risk of personal ruin.



In order to cure Lord Krsna's headache the gopis were willing to go to hell, while others were concerned for their own well being and that they would go to hell for giving their pada duli. So we should be prepared to follow in the footsteps of the gopis and prefer to go to hell than see Lord Caitanya's mission spoiled.
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#25
-13 Govinda Dasi 2013-03-26 17:24
Being wrapped up in a cocoon of self-righteousness, and thus oblivious to the impressions we make in the world, is truly not representing our Gurudev, Srila Prabhupada. It would be better to not speak at all than to create so much ill will by one’s manner of speech.

This problem is not only here. It is widespread throughout the movement at this time. For us senior disciples, it is far easier to just shake our heads, chant our japa, and mutter “whatever” under our breath--and many of us do. But we care. We genuinely care. We love Srila Prabhupada, we gave our lives to him, and frankly, it is painful to see the many ways he has come to be misrepresented.

We don’t think of ourselves as “superior” to you--at least I don’t. We think of ourselves as guardians in the same way an older brother or sister protects and cares for a younger sibling.

Personally, I have great faith that this movement will go on. There is no doubt it will rise out of the dark ages and eventually flourish. But the newer, younger devotees ARE the future of Srila Prabhupada’s movement. They should not be misled or given faulty information that will discourage them. Srila Prabhupada cared so much for the children; he often said they are the future of Lord Chaitanya’s movement.

Yet many of them have left; many who were raised in Iskcon now want no part of it--mostly due to the often perverted attitudes that have somehow taken root in our society.

The youth, and the new devotees, are our main concern. We want to protect and guide them so that they stay with us all their lives as we have done. That is the heart of the matter.
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#26
-12 Govinda Dasi 2013-03-26 17:27
Aside from all this, the “object of the game” is to get people to chant the Holy Names of the Lord--not to drive them away. Srila Prabhupada taught us to scatter seeds far and wide--not to focus on little myopic windows of contention--like who can do this and who can do that. Such stuff can be hashed out in private meetings, not public internet forums where all the world can see. Because, then onlookers will label Hare Krishnas as having weird or sadistic attitudes, among other things.

Today’s Iskcon is indeed very different from what Srila Prabhupada originally set up, in many ways. Perhaps the main way is that it has denigrated to the level of petty squabbles over the most minute things. And has often forgotten that the main purpose is to spread the Holy Names of Lord Krishna, and distribute Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, books, etc.

When we older disciples see this, it is truly our duty to speak out about it. Otherwise we are miserly, and thus withholding valuable information.

I can’t count the times that some new person--so carefully cultivated by friendship, Prabhupada’s books and prasad--is suddenly repulsed by the behavior of immature godbrothers and godsisters.

Very recently this happened with a young fellow in another country. One of my Godbrothers sent him to an “Iskcon website” (like this one) that had some appalling article. He fled. Never to return.
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#27
-14 Govinda Dasi 2013-03-26 17:28
Dear Lila G.

Please accept my humble obeisances. I am very sorry that you felt offended by my comments. Certainly it was not my desire nor intention to offend you, Maharaj, nor anyone for that matter.

Please understand: It is not out of a sense of superiority that we older disciples address such issues as this. It is more born of concern and compassion for those new devotees, and moreover, for the myriad of new devotees, both male as well as female, who flee this “new” Iskcon, and go elsewhere.

It is commendable that you are able to tolerate such a mood; it shows you have great humility (and probably very little self-respect.)

Unfortunately, that is not the case for most people. Most people would find the attitudes expressed in this article to be repugnant, and thus consider our Krishna consciousness philosophy repulsive. If we preach in such a caustic manner, most people will go away, and rabidly criticize Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon in many unfortunate ways.

Are you unaware of the reputation Iskcon now has? As child abusers, pedophiles, woman haters, sado-masochists, etc. NONE of these attitudes were introduced by Srila Prabhupada.

This is not a matter of a “genderless society,” which is an impossibility. This is a matter of promoting mutual respect amongst all godbrothers and godsisters. It was for this reason that Srila Prabhupada personally introduced the practice of addressing one another as “prabhu.” I well remember the day he instituted this, and the reasons he gave. And this is the reason we oldies still call one another “prabhu.” (maybe the “mataji” form of address came later, I don’t know. Does anyone know where that came from?)
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#28
-20 MadhavaLata dd 2013-03-27 01:30
[quote name="Lila G."] Lila Mataji, careful in showing off about your sankirtan. It is starting to be doubtful what women can say when they preach. It seems that only the last day of your period you can grasp something about the philosophy. I see the points Maharaj is saying and we can see that in a very near future in Iskcon restrictions can only increase.
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#29
-13 MadhavaLata dd 2013-03-27 04:37
Normally, to be polite to our opponents, we assume that they are truthful about their motives, but what if they aren't? What if women indeed want to do this or that to become a center of attention? What if they want equality because they want the taste of what is normally forbidden?

Shastra would not help here, it requires our won judgment.

I did not know that in Iskcon women and men are opponents instead of being godbrother/godsisters. Beside the rightfulness of what Maharaj is saying, I see in many comments that as a result many felt legitimated to start a sort of inquisition and witches hunt, as in the above quote. No trace of compassion and love which is what we are supposed to cultivate in our movement. Here the differences that makes HG Naradapriya dd rejoices so much, are creating more barriers and high walls just based on gender within our society. Difficult to find a comment in this list,that an external person will judge as spoken by a spiritualist. We keep up these wars within the movement of Srila Prabhupada in such self-centered fashion that we forget : how many devotees there are on billions of people on the planet? how many we are? we should celebrate anyone that takes up to this krishna consciousness because we are very very few and creating this gap between us just because of the faults of our bodies, is not going to bring our consciousness and this movement very far. If any of the truths that we are professing are not to change the heart, but only to harden it, we are failing. Preaching will fail. Other devotee failure are our own failure, because we did not speak and act with love. This is the area where women can really make the difference. We can see Draupadi that even in front of the killing of her own children, she firstly valued the sentiment of the other woman, the suffering involved, instead of appealing to sastra to seek her revenge. She used her heart, her compassion, which is not an injunction from sastra yet it was a high example of Vaisnavism. Maharaj is in the position of speaking also harsh or unpleasant things, but this should not authorize anyone to take those words and use them to create the two sides of a battlefield : the righteous and the devil and start a war sometime even fought with slokas to feel to be the one who detains the truth. This is pseudo religion, not the science that we want to represent. So, before commenting anything on the web, one should first consider if this will be useful to the society, Prabhuapada’s society, and to all its precious members and to its goal instead of one’s own ego. Whoever is in this movement, whether man or woman, is a precious fruit of Lord Caitanya’s love. Now you can take what I have said as food for thoughts or just waive it, which I can understand, because I belong to the less intelligent class. Hare Krishna
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#30
+1 Sitalatma das 2013-03-27 06:27
But this is not a public forum!

It is public only in a sense that anyone can read these articles and comments but they are not meant for public consumption, they are meant for devotees who made a conscious choice to surrender to guru and Krishna and fully embrace our philosophy.

The BVPS lecture was delivered to the audience of devotees, too, and they seemed to have liked it.

Most of the things we discuss among each other and in our Bhagavatam classes should not be even brought up with outsiders. Now they appear on the Internet but it still doesn't make them public.

>>

"prefer to go to hell than see Lord Caitanya's mission spoiled" - I'm not sure about that. Jiva Goswami tried to protect integrity of Rupa Goswami's verse, i.e. protect the mission, and Rupa Goswami, his guru, disapproved. Personal considerations should probably come before the "naked truth".

>>

Second generation devotees took over day to day management of ISKCON in post zonal acharya period and I think in many ways they did a rather good job of restoring our society and preserving Srila Prabhupada's legacy. Now it's the third generation turn at the wheel - even though most still get initiated by Prabhupada's disciples they actually learn how to do things from second generation.

Many of the current debates are about this new generation's different outlook on the world at large and ISKCON place in it. Personally I think they are too much influenced by popular culture and think in terms of their rights, like the right to serve in any way they want, but I'm sure that's not how they see themselves.
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#31
+21 Mohan dasa 2013-03-27 07:53
Quoting Govinda Dasi:
Dear Lila G.


Are you unaware of the reputation Iskcon now has? As child abusers, pedophiles, woman haters, sado-masochists, etc



Dear Mataji,

Hare Krsna.

I lived and traveled through out the USA for more than 2 decades as a devotee and the sad fact is that 99% of people have never even heard of ISKCON or the Hare Krsna movement. So I simply cannot agree with you. Perhaps in feminist dominated academia that is the way we are portrayed but in reality no one in North America even knows we exist since we stopped distributing books, and doing mass Harinama Sankirtan. I recall about 10 years or so ago arriving in LAX wearing dhoti and shaved head and a man came up to me and asked if I was a Hare Krsna. I replied yes. He then said “where have you guys been all these years?” And this was at LAX where devotees distribute books incognito. This has happened to me time and again.

Devotees in the West have developed this paranoia that every one keeps a copy of “Monkey on Stick” under their pillow and hates us. Nothing could be further than the truth. They don’t think any of those things you said, because they have no idea that we exist. Everyone just do the experiment, go out your self and ask people if they ever heard of the Hare Krsna? Better still do it in a sari or dhoti and shaved up if you are a man. People might think you are Buddhist, but never heard of the Hare Krsnas.

Why because we started to believe that the opinions of academia and media was important and stopped preaching. We either affect society or are affected by it. I prefer to be an instrument for affecting society.

yhs

Mohan dasa
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#32
+13 Damana Krishna 2013-03-27 14:22
Quoting Narada Priya devi dasi:
This is what I find puzzling: There are Prabhupada disciples who wish to make ISKCON a genderless, egalitarian society, but if you disagree, you are reminded by them of your junior position.
Why is this?

Some people dont see connection of ISKCON to the parampara and tradition, but see only the few years where SP was dealing with wild hippies.
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#33
+1 Govinda Dasi 2013-03-27 21:36
Dear Mohan Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. Yes, much of what you say is sad but true. Due to reduced public preaching, few people recognize the Hare Krishna sankirtan as in the past.

However, the internet presence is very active and alive, and available to practically everyone. And so much of what is on the internet--like scandals, courtcases, abuse charges, and articles of a questionable nature--is seen by everyone. This is something that really needs to be addressed, since we are definitely representing Srila Prabhupada every time we hit the keyboard.

Your servant, Govinda dasi
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#34
+1 Govinda Dasi 2013-03-27 21:46
There are many different varieties of personalities, having many different varieties of thoughts, inclinations and perspectives. And also having various types of adhikar, or spiritual eligibility. This will always exist.

The purification process usually takes lifetimes, depending upon the humility of the jiva, and upon the will of God.

So it would be better to set aside all false (and temporary) designations and simply embrace the (perhaps) most important instruction of Srila Prabhupada:

“Chant Hare Krishna and Be Happy.”
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#35
+18 Gaura lila dd 2013-03-28 02:03
That was well explained by Maharaja, and in my women body I never felt offended by what he said, and its kind sad that Govinda Dasi felt opposite. It's good that Maharaja pointed this out. Its trends now in our iskcon the need of some senior matajis (or they more like to be called prabhu) to be in any position possible in our isckon eg. sannyasi, hotri yadnya to name a few. The history exploitation of women in the past can not be ignore nor be forgotten. But to think what maharaja said as an exploitation on women seem to be out of mind. He is right about women and man nature. Now days the new matajis come to hare krsna are being taught wrongly instead of teaching them the basic things of being in women nature they taught them about being equal or in some other superior than man. There's lots of stories of noble vaisnavi such Mother Kunti, Mother Sacimata, Mother Yasodha etc (yes we call them all mother not prabhu) how most of them are wonderful mother and wife, and their mind concern only is to serve their children and husband nicely nothing else. Because they expertly serve their husband and children nicely they received high hon our as a mother and a wife not just from their husband and children but also from society at large. And there's a lots of Prabhupada diciples couples who we can take the example of being a wife and mother, I believe this is what Prabhupada actually want in his iskcon. Exploitation of women should never be tolerate its not just happened in iskcon but you can see it in this world, it's happening and still going on. So Govinda Dasi how can you protect the women not being exploited? by teaching them that they are equal with man? is this what Srila Prabhupa taught us? I read his books there's nothing explained of being equal with man instead he explained that women should never be Independence and should always be under protection of father, than husband, than son. I 100% believe that if more teaching/practice of being a noble mother/wife promoted in Iskcon they would be lots of vaisnava son/daughter born who would have high respect of women in Iskcon.
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#36
+20 Bhaktilata dd 2013-03-28 03:58
Quoting MadhavaLata dd:


I did not know that in Iskcon women and men are opponents instead of being godbrother/godsisters. Beside the rightfulness of what Maharaj is saying, I see in many comments that as a result many felt legitimated to start a sort of inquisition and witches hunt, as in the above quote. …


Dear Mataji,

Hare Krsna.

First of the whole thing turned nasty not by anything Maharaja rightfully said, but, if you follow the time line of comments, because of Govinda dasi’s attack on H.H. Bhaktividyapurna Swami, and then those who sprang into his defense. That is the sum of it.

With the well-documented rise of feminism in ISKCON has come increasing hostility between the sexes. This is what feminism does everywhere it goes. It is a social disease, an extension of the Marxist dialectic of class struggle to gender struggle. They see men as oppressors to be overcome. In the 3rd canto instructions of how men and women should behave with each other Vyasadeva and Srila Prabhupada in comments point out that women should not compete with men and that the male superiority complex should be recognized and appreciated or there will be major conflict in a marriage. The family is a microcosm of society at large and the same effect prevails in society. If women want to be equal and compete with men, then men lose whatever impetus they may have had to protect women and instead see them as the enemy with predictable consequences. Women may complain that they don’t feel protected by the men, but what is the reason for that? Is the man incapable of giving protection or is it that the woman doesn’t want to be protected but instead wants to compete with him?


There competition with men in ISKCON for establishment of gender equality creates an adversarial environment of mistrust leading in some cases to real offensive behavior and in some case down right hatred. This of course is not only in ISKCON but everywhere that the plague of feminism has spread. It recently caused a schism in the Anglican Church. And unless something changes quickly will probably do the same in ISKCON. I have really become sicken by the continuing bickering and especially disgusted by these senior women, who as some one else pointed out, have been a major cause of pain in ISKCON by their materialistic mentality and sense of entitlement.

cont...
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#37
+18 Bhaktilata dd 2013-03-28 03:59
2nd part

These senior women are now demanding to be diksha gurus and this is causing a backlash. They hide behind “ACBSP” and that is enough, in their eyes, to qualify them as being rare souls, the great exception to the rule that would allow them to be diksha gurus . But unfortunately in most cases their feet are made of clay.

The following two texts give a clear picture of the senior women, feminists in ISKCON who seek to be in leadership positions. We are trying to get rid of men like this, why then should we accept such women?

“Citralekha Responds to a Letter from Urmila”
.../e ditor ials9 487.h tm

“You Men are Such Simple Creatures”
.../e ditor ials9 285.h tm

But it is not a simple male versus female, as those two texts illustrate, it is more of a cultural war than gender war, because there are many women who realize that feminism is the worst thing that ever happened to us women (ISKCON women are about 10-15 years behind the rest of the world and are just figuring this out) and there are men, especially in the West who support feminism. Basically it is between those who want to adopt Krsna’s Vedic civilization versus those who are still very much attached to the Western culture they were brought up in. Some of the later are openly hostile to Vedic culture, are actually Indo-phobic or Vedo-phobic even going to the extent of saying that wearing traditional clothing is maya “dhotis are maya” as one proclaimed. It is actually pretty sickening, I hope the divorce between the two sides takes place soon so that the offences stop and we can go our separate ways and continue to preach the mission of Lord Caitanya in peace without all the internal struggles.

yhs

Bhaktilata dd
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#38
+13 anonymous 2013-03-28 04:40
Quoting MadhavaLata dd:
Now you can take what I have said as food for thoughts or just waive it, which I can understand, because I belong to the less intelligent class. Hare Krishna


We note your sarcasm. Here are two well researched articles on the topic:

Srila Prabhupada said that women are less-intelligent than men. Can we support this? www.d andav ats.c om/.. ./

and

A response to Hari-kirtana prabhu regarding my article

www.d andav ats.c om/.. ./
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#39
+17 Bkaktilata dd 2013-03-28 05:16
“This question was raised by Pariksit Maharaja when Sukadeva Gosvami described the rasa-lila. So that... "Krsna appeared on this material world, dharma-samsthapanarthaya, paritranaya sadhunam, dharma-samsthapanarthaya. So why He violated these rules of dharma?" Violation because, according to Vedic civilization, nobody can mix with other's wife or other woman. Even in moral principle, as Canakya Pandita said, matrvat para-daresu. "All women should be treated just like mother." Not like the present society. Formerly, every woman should be addressed as "mother," Mataji. And now they have invented "Bahinji." No. Woman should be addressed as "mother." Matrvat para-daresu…

…Brahmananda: In your lecture you quoted Canakya Pandita that a man must see every woman other than his own wife as mother. How should a woman see other men?
Prabhupada: As son. (laughter)
Brahmananda: That was my idea.
Prabhupada: Yes. If I see woman as mother, she must see me as son. That's all. That is the system. The brahmacari, the sannyasi go to beg alms from door to door. "Mother, give me some bhiksa, alms." And it is the duty of the grhastha to treat brahmacari and sannyasi as their son. As they maintain their children with food, shelter, cloth, similarly the brahmacaris and sannyasis, they are dependent on the society. They should be treated as the sons of the society. And they must supply their necessities, bare necessities. A sannyasi, brahmacari, does not want more than what they need. They should not collect more than what they need. Bhiksa nirvahana. Not collect more and enjoy at others' cost. No. That is not the business of sannyasi. They can collect so much as they need. That's all.
Devotee: When you address a woman, do you...
Prabhupada: Hm?
Devotee: When you address a woman do you use the word "Mataji"? Is that the right, proper word for her?
Prabhupada: Mataji. Yes, very good. "Mother." All right. Chant. (end)”

Bhagavad-gita 4.14 Lecture, Vrndavana, August 6, 1974
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#40
+12 Bkaktilata dd 2013-03-28 05:23
This last text was in response to Govida dasi's text

"I well remember the day he instituted this, and the reasons he gave. And this is the reason we oldies still call one another “prabhu.” (maybe the “mataji” form of address came later, I don’t know. Does anyone know where that came from?)"
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#41
+12 Mohan dasa 2013-03-28 05:45
Quoting Govinda Dasi:
Dear Mohan Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. Yes, much of what you say is sad but true. Due to reduced public preaching, few people recognize the Hare Krishna sankirtan as in the past.

However, the internet presence is very active and alive, and available to practically everyone. And so much of what is on the internet--like scandals, courtcases, abuse charges, and articles of a questionable nature--is seen by everyone. This is something that really needs to be addressed, since we are definitely representing Srila Prabhupada every time we hit the keyboard.

Your servant, Govinda dasi


Dear Mataji,

PAMHO AGTSP

Even if all public debate stopped in ISKCON at this very instant all the things you mention above would remain archived for years. By this time in the era of the internet any experienced user knows that these kind of things go on. It is not unique to ISKCON it is everywhere and on almost every topic. It is called "Flaming." So they have to filter it out as best they can. That is just the way it is on the internet and nothing much you can do about it except provide positive content.

It is good to know that you are concerned how Srila Prabhupada is represented but ironically the way you dealt with the situation appears, from the reaction it provoked, to have been less than optimal, and contributed to that which you are trying to avoid. (-:

yhs

Mohan dasa
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#42
+8 Narada Priya devi dasi 2013-03-29 16:05
Here's another question puzzling me: The women Prabhupada disciples who say they want to be called "prabhu" and not "mataji" or "mother" but like to be called "Vaisnavai" rather than "Vaisnava".
Why the distinction one way but not the other? Why distinguish at all if your aim is equality or a classless society?
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#43
+13 Narada Priya devi dasi 2013-04-01 13:44
Quoting Bhaktilata dd:
2nd part

But it is not a simple male versus female, as those two texts illustrate, it is more of a cultural war than gender war, because there are many women who realize that feminism is the worst thing that ever happened to us women (ISKCON women are about 10-15 years behind the rest of the world and are just figuring this out) and there are men, especially in the West who support feminism. Basically it is between those who want to adopt Krsna’s Vedic civilization versus those who are still very much attached to the Western culture they were brought up in. Some of the later are openly hostile to Vedic culture, are actually Indo-phobic or Vedo-phobic even going to the extent of saying that wearing traditional clothing is maya “dhotis are maya” as one proclaimed. It is actually pretty sickening, I hope the divorce between the two sides takes place soon so that the offences stop and we can go our separate ways and continue to preach the mission of Lord Caitanya in peace without all the internal struggles.

yhs

Bhaktilata dd


I agree with Bhaktilata that these women who seem to want perpetual “time and circumstance” preaching in ISKCON are behind the times! A growing backlash against feminism has been going on for some time now. Numerous websites popping up, more than ever before, attest to this. Both men and women telling why feminism doesn't work in a healthy society. Rather than changing 90% of Prabhupada's books, now is the time to represent Prabhupada's teachings purely.

We need family life in ISKCON not backwards “woman’s rights”. Otherwise, a split is inevitable for the situation has become intolerable. No one can tolerate people who think the spiritual master founder acarya was "mistaken" like some ordinary conditioned soul. Rather those people should be ousted from ISKCON to save the society.
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#44
-5 Prem Nidhi Dasa 2013-04-05 09:03
In ancient India, women occupied a very important position, in fact a superior position to, men. It is a culture whose only words for strength and power are feminine -"Shakti'' means "power'' and "strength.'' All male power comes from the feminine. Literary evidence suggests that kings and towns were destroyed because a single woman was wronged by the state. For example, Valmiki's Ramayana teaches us that Ravana and his entire clan was wiped out because he abducted Sita. Veda Vyasa's Mahabharatha teaches us that all the Kauravas were killed because they humiliated Draupadi in public. Elango Adigal's Sillapathigaram teaches us Madurai, the capital of the Pandyas was burnt because Pandyan Nedunchezhiyan mistakenly killed her husband on theft charges.

In Vedic times women and men were equal as far as education and religion was concerned. Women participated in the public sacrifices alongside men. One text mentions a female rishi Visvara. Some Vedic hymns, are attributed to women such as Apala, the daughter of Atri, Ghosa, the daughter of Kaksivant or Indrani, the wife of Indra. Apparently in early Vedic times women also received the sacred thread and could study the Vedas. The Haritasmrti mentions a class of women called brahmavadinis who remained unmarried and spent their lives in study and ritual. Panini's distinction between arcarya (a lady teacher) and acaryani (a teacher's wife), and upadhyaya (a woman preceptor) and upadhyayani ( a preceptor's wife) indicates that women at that time could not only be students but also teachers of sacred lore. He mentions the names of several noteworthy women scholars of the past such as Kathi, Kalapi, and Bahvici. The Upanishads refer to several women philosophers, who disputed with their male colleagues such as Vacaknavi, who challenged Yajnavalkya. The Rig Veda also refers to women engaged in warfare. One queen Bispala is mentioned, and even as late a witness as Megasthenes (fifth century B.C. E.) mentions heavily armed women guards protecting Chandragupta's palace.
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#45
+1 Narakriti Das 2013-04-07 16:59
This is a transcription of the discussion which has to be seen in the context of the whole lecture or seminar. If you would know H.H Bhaktividyapurna Swami you would not make such a comment.

Quoting Sitalatma das:
It's amazing maharaj can get away with saying such things about women, elsewhere he'd be eaten alive.

Normally we discuss these things from the POV of shastra - are women allowed to do something or not, but here maharaj deals with women's actual qualifications.

Normally, to be polite to our opponents, we assume that they are truthful about their motives, but what if they aren't? What if women indeed want to do this or that to become a center of attention? What if they want equality because they want the taste of what is normally forbidden?

Shastra would not help here, it requires our won judgment.
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#46
+2 Narakriti Das 2013-04-07 17:59
H.H Bhaktividyapurna Swami is not a part of this discussion so there is no point addressing the comment to him.
He is not here to respond and
One has to see the whole picture of Varnasrama that Maharaja studies and teaches. Today he is accepted as one of the most educated person in ISKCON on the topic.

I would suggest to see this short conversation as something to think about ,study more and eventually clarify with H.H Bhaktividyapurna Swami in person any of the points mentioned.

But If the text of the questions and answers are not approved by Maharaja for publishing it on the web it might be better to withdraw them. Persons not familiar with the topic might misunderstand it.


Emotional outbursts in public forums are painful to read. What to say if one respectable Srila Prabhupada's disciple attacks another one. This is very sad and unnecessary.

Your servant Narakriti das

[quote name="Govinda Dasi"]Dear Maharaj,

Please accept my most humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

I
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#47
+14 Krishna-kirti das 2013-04-07 20:52
I very much appreciate Maharaja's perspective. I agree with it 100%. That said, the answer Maharaja gives will typically be found unsatisfying for people who are trained in Western categories of thought and remain too attached to them. The reason is simple: since the Western Enlightenment, the controlling idea about human nature is that there is no such thing as fixed human nature. That is why, for example, we see the lady ask, "What if she is brahminically qualified?" She does not accept that human nature can at all be fixed. She takes ability to be synonymous with qualification. The problem, however, is that they are not.

With regard to qualification, there is svadharma, and then there is paradharma. Svadharma is one's duties prescribed according to one's nature, and paradharma are someone else's duties (that are not your own). According to Gita verse 18.47, it is better to preform one's own prescribed duties although full of fault than to perform another's perfectly, because duties prescribed according to one's nature are never subject to sinful reaction. Thus ability does not imply duty. Your prescribed duties are not prescribed according to your ability to perform those duties well.

This idea just blows the mental stack of people who are too attached to Western modes of thought. They viscerally if not outright reject it. According to their view, one should always engage in activities in which they excell at (and are not outright sinful, like killing cows). But in that view there can be no paradharma because all who are engaged in some occupation they excell at are engaged appropriately. Since this view rejects paradharma, it rejects Krishna's teachings and hence is ashastriya, or outside of the scriptures, unauthorized.
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#48
+7 Narada Priya devi dasi 2013-04-08 16:08
[quote name="Prem Nidhi Dasa"]
In Vedic times women and men were equal as far as education and religion was concerned. Women participated in the public sacrifices alongside men...

Prem Nidhi prabhu,
There was no dearth of family women at those times either. Those ladies who acted outside traditional roles were highly cultured. In ISKCON we have young ladies dressing immodestly and dating irresponsible young men. This is sudra class. Any woman's ministry funded by the GBC, rather, should represent the highest culture for women given by Prabhupada and sastra without compromise. Yes, women may have studied and got sacred thread and so on within Vedic culture, but under the protection of good fathers, husbands and their domestic domain, something almost totally absent at present. Vow- keeping, in particular the marriage vow, was also an important criteria. Full support should me made for girl's being trained by their fathers and mothers this way.

Online for many years is a group called "Young Christian Woman's Fellowship". They are all married now. All of them were virgins at their marriages and not one of them dated. All of them joined together with a common bond- protection by their fathers and preparation for a life as a wife, mother and servant of God. All of them are content at home and contribute to the Christian Ministry as protected women.

In other words, the GBC should be neutral towards women's groups which advocate working women or sudranis and all such related education for women. Such women can get their education easily elsewhere. And a high class lady can be educated, yes, but it was never in an asram away from their fathers where they could secretly meet young men at night. This was going on. The gurukulis themselves have told me.

I disagree, therefore, that all women are equal with men. They may give the appearance of equality because they are meant to assist, like the sudras do, with any type of service. Thus it is reasonable to expect that we will always see public women working alongside men. The sudra class is naturally the most numerous throughout history, out of necessity. Part of Prabhupada's plan, however, was to reinstate the higher classes of men AND women, name brahmanas and kstraiyas and their noble women.
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#49
-14 Maah 2013-04-11 03:07
"what are they doing is not yajnas. Because it is all about them. If you have ever done a yajna, whatever you are wearing gets ruined. Because of your endeavor to make the best arrangements for the fire to be able to accept the wood, the ghee and all the offerings. So these things burn holes on your clothes, ghee gets all over the place, everything turns black…So when you watch those yajnas that women are doing what it is like? They have this small fire and everything is perfect. This is not yajna. It does not have anything to do with Agni, it is all about them being the center of attention. Basically that means their husbands don’t know how to take care of them so they have to come in public and try to get some attention."

What a strange and insulting argument. No men want to be the center of attention? I have seen many more souls in masculine forms wanting to be the Center of attention, the Parusha, than women..that is their nature as copies of Lord Krishna. Surely it is the highest insult one can offer an aspiring devotee, male or female..that they want to be Center, be God. The question whether women should do fire sacrifices or not, i do not know the answer to, why are there no quotes by Srila Prabhupada, no stories to convince me?... The across-the-board accusation hurled at female devotees is rubbish. And where exactly does it say a fire sacrifice has to be huge and dirty? I have seen many sacrifices done by men which are not huge nor filthy. Very strange indeed.

Another point, If a lady does sacrifice and the favorable result is there, how can you say it is not yajna? For example in the home, many ladies do agni hotra and obtain the sacred ash and it heals sick people, sick air, sick water and sick land. You can see it on youtube and other places online. Benefit of daily Agnihotra.

A third point, in the Temples we see a moving away from having ladies on the altar, but they should establish altars in their own homes. Is it only public yajnas the ladies should not do because the men become more interested in watching and critisizing her cleanliness attitude and smallness than in the sacrifice? What about home sacrifices. What does Srila Prabhupada and Shastra say about home yajnas?
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#50
-14 Maah 2013-04-11 03:08
"Why don’t the ladies start wearing white? Simple. Just think of the money you will save. Think about all that endeavor for everything like that. So why is not that done? No, because we are women and we need all these things…so the point is that they are going to do all those things in the yajna. The man is doing the yajna and that’s it, when the woman is doing it, it is the whole thing about who is looking, what the other ladies will say – who she thinks she is to do this – this is going on…"

In the early days brahmacarinis wore yellow cloth like their brothers. Then Srila Prabhupada told them he liked to see them in nice saris. He also did not like women to shave up or wear white. In one letter regarding this he wrote. "Krishna does not like ugly gopies" He wanted the ladies to look nice for Lord Krishna. But you take it the ladies dress nicely only in a very low class way. Meanwhile, the men they are not allowed to look beautiful at all, to keep their tendency to be the center in check and allow the ladies to focus on the Supremely Beautiful Lord, without undue competition from the fakes. It is prerequisite for joining, shaved head to keep the men from thinking they have become beautiful in Kali yuga. "We are against this." (Laughing)--Srila Prabhupada.

"when Prabhupada was here did the ladies make yajnas, or worship the deities?"

Ladies did indeed worship the deities, Mother Shilavati was especially commended by Srila Prabhupada for this. Los Angeles Temple was regularly praised and many ladies did that service there then.

Rest of conversation was agreeable and interesting. Thank you. Hare Krishna.
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#51
-14 Bhaktin S. 2013-04-11 04:56
One should speak the truth, but speak it in a respectful and palatable manner, with full reference to (and reverence for) guru-sadhu-sastra.

Yes, Maharaja is exactly right in that men and women have unique roles - and indeed, that diversity is part of what makes this world (and even the spiritual world) beautiful. That is justified by guru-sadhu-sastra. But so much else in this statement was merely personal opinion and could even be rather offensive to the sincere devotee women in our movement.
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#52
-11 Bhaktin S. 2013-04-11 05:02
Many women - particularly DEVOTEE women, who know that beauty is temporary and that we are not these bodies - have FAR better things to do than to worry so much about their external appearance, like actual engagement in devotional service.

The qualification of a proper yajna - regardless of who performs it - is in the qualification of the devotee performing it, as well as in the strict adherence to the principles of guru-sadhu-sastra when performing it, NOT whether or not one's clothes are "ruined" or "perfect". Yes, sastra does give very clear guidelines about who performs yajna. But it is not a "perfect" yajna that disqualifies those who aren't permitted to perform it.

As for women doing Deity seva, the Srimad Bhagavatam itself authorizes that: "... Therefore I consider worship of You in Your Deity form to be the most beneficial of all spiritual practices, even for women and śūdras." (SB 11.27.3-4)
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#53
-13 Bhaktin S. 2013-04-11 05:13
Quoting Narada Priya devi dasi:

In other words, the GBC should be neutral towards women's groups which advocate working women or sudranis and all such related education for women. Such women can get their education easily elsewhere. And a high class lady can be educated, yes, but it was never in an asram away from their fathers where they could secretly meet young men at night. This was going on. The gurukulis themselves have told me.

When men start consistently protecting women, then we can return to the Vedic standard. In Kali-yuga, men are NOT protecting women, and women have to be prepared to take care of themselves and stand on their own. Countless matajis worldwide have been seriously abused by the men who were supposed to "protect" them, even in devotional circles - not just verbally but even physically - and they had no choice, for their own safety and for that of their children, to get an education, then get a job and fend for themselves.

That is the harsh reality of this world, and if we don't accept it, our whole society will suffer. One dear mataji in America was married to such an abusive husband (who later left ISKCON altogether, but at the time was an initiated devotee). Desiring very strongly to keep the Vedic ideal for her family, she nevertheless stayed with him - until the abuse was so severe that her fingers were severed, and she felt her life could be at risk. To add fuel to the fire, this man went to have illicit sex with another woman WHILE he was married.

Sastra of course authorizes women to leave such men. But how can they do so without an education and a job to fend for themselves AND protect their children? (Of course this man was abusive to the children as well - he'd beat them - but the woman suffered the most.) Vaisnavi women have to be STABLE in their family life to peacefully engage in Krsna consciousness. If that means they need their own financial support, then they HAVE to get it.

If men want a return to the Vedic standard from women, then they had surely better adhere to it for men as well. Else the society that does not protect women and children will force them to leave the Vedic standard in order to survive. The women can't be blamed for what the men force them to do.
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#54
-13 Bhaktin S. 2013-04-11 05:23
Quoting Prem Nidhi Dasa:

In Vedic times women and men were equal as far as education and religion was concerned. Women participated in the public sacrifices alongside men...

Prem Nidhi prabhu,
There was no dearth of family women at those times either. Those ladies who acted outside traditional roles were highly cultured. In ISKCON we have young ladies dressing immodestly and dating irresponsible young men. This is sudra class. Any woman's ministry funded by the GBC, rather, should represent the highest culture for women given by Prabhupada and sastra without compromise. Yes, women may have studied and got sacred thread and so on within Vedic culture, but under the protection of good fathers, husbands and their domestic domain, something almost totally absent at present. Vow- keeping, in particular the marriage vow, was also an important criteria. Full support should me made for girl's being trained by their fathers and mothers this way.


Full support can only be given if men (fathers AND husbands AND sons) actually do their part to protect the women (and for fathers, to train the women). That is not always the case in this Kali-yuga. I was physically abused by my own karmi "father" - to the point of having to seek police protection, and eventually leaving the household (he was never a 16 rounds-4 regs. devotee, but formerly attended the ISKCON temple). And I'm one of many who were thus left unprotected.

Presently I am living on my own, with no choice but to fend for myself - for my own safety and protection. There is no women's ashram to take shelter of, so that means I have to live outside - and therefore, to study and take a job - just to take care of myself. Do I want to intentionally break the Vedic standard for need of "independence"? NO - and I deeply wish I had that loving, nurturing, PROTECTING devotee family to take care of me.

But what choice do I have now? Marriage is a possibility - IF by Krsna's grace I can find a nice, spiritually strong, PROTECTING devotee husband to take care of me - but such is not so easy to find. I can't just jump into a marriage so quickly, or else I'd run the serious risk of being the next of the countless women - even those in our movement - who have been abused by their husbands as well. So for now, as I wait for Krsna's arrangement, for now, single - and working - I must remain.
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#55
+14 Sitalatma Das 2013-04-11 12:38
I think it's more important to discuss whether maharaja's description of women performing yajnas is correct rather than talk about who is being potentially offended by it.

>>>

One's performance of one's duty should not depend on how well others perform theirs, ie a woman cannot give up her dharma just because her husband is slacking off. Similarly, a husband can't give up his duties towards his wife just because she does something wrong.

Furthermore, performance of one's duty should not depend on results, ie if I don't make enough money I should not stop providing for my wife altogether, of if a husband doesn't provide enough his wife should just stop cooking.

We have to do what we have to do unconditionally.
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#56
+1 Bhaktin S. 2013-04-11 14:22
Quoting Sitalatma Das:
I think it's more important to discuss whether maharaja's description of women performing yajnas is correct rather than talk about who is being potentially offended by it.

No one can rightly dispute the conclusions of sastra. But the way it is described - and the alleged reasons given for "why" that is conclusion of sastra is so - can be right or wrong, and acceptable or offensive, regardless of whether or not the conclusion is correct. Furthermore, an aparadha targeted at half the human race (women) could seriously negatively impact upon the success of our movement - in retention of current members as well as in preaching to new ones. So, what is said and how - and who could have potentially been offended by improper speech - DOES matter. That's why it's being addressed.

Quote:
One's performance of one's duty should not depend on how well others perform theirs, ie a woman cannot give up her dharma just because her husband is slacking off. Similarly, a husband can't give up his duties towards his wife just because she does something wrong.

Furthermore, performance of one's duty should not depend on results, ie if I don't make enough money I should not stop providing for my wife altogether, of if a husband doesn't provide enough his wife should just stop cooking.

We have to do what we have to do unconditionally.
Legitimate abuse is quite different from one who's "slacking off" or who'd "stop providing".. So is falling down from the regulative principles. In both cases, sastra permits women to leave their husbands for their PROTECTION as well as that of their family (children, etc.). One should NOT submit oneself "unconditionally" to such a husband.
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#57
+13 Sitalatma Das 2013-04-13 14:16
These days you can't say anything without "offending" someone somewhere. Personally, I don't see that maharaja committed an aparadha against half the human race and even if he did it wouldn't be our business to correct him so this angle to discussion is unproductive.

I put "offense" in quotes because these days everything unpleasing to our egos is called an "offense" and an "aparadha". Whatever we personally feel is the result of our karma and could be completely unrelated to the mindset of the person who causes our suffering. Offenses exist in the minds of the offenders, they are not determined by our reactions.

When a saintly person speaks unpalatable truth for our enlightenment it's not an offense, it's his greatest service.

>>

In the western world very very few women need actual protection from men, ie reach the point where their duty to protect themselves and their children overrides their duty towards their husbands.

A husband failing regulative principles as grounds for separation? Why bother with calling it a marriage at all?

If Sanskrit and Hindi do not have words for divorce then, perhaps, our modern ISKCON vocabulary should be stripped of the word "commitment".
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#58
+17 Narada Priya devi dasi 2013-04-13 17:08
Bhaktin S- A look at history reveals the feminsts' main agenda has been to eliminate the traditional family and in order to do this they had to devise ways to force women out of their homes. One important tactic that helped bring this about was the "no fault divorce" law, the elimination of the "family wage", etc.

The result has been women feeling compelled to take to modern education and career choices "as a back up plan" because of the chance of suddenly becoming unprotected. In other words, it's so easy to get a divorce nowadays, much to the detriment of women and children. Thanks to feminists, every protection wives of the past enjoyed has been stripped away and now even housewives of 30 plus years can be forced on the street if their husband suddenly wants a pretty, new model.

More info here: .../Y ou_Do n_t_K now_F emini sm_74 41007 44.sh tml

Yes, women can thank the feminists for being forced to fend for themselves. Prabhupada also said the feminists' plan was a dumb one because it encouraged irresponsibility in men; the women ended up being duped. More men than ever are thinking twice about marriage, realizing they risk losing half of everything they earn plus their kids if they can't control a crazy wife, either, or realizing they can get plenty of free sex with so many desperate women running around.

Kali yuga is no fun for anyone. And thinking a spouse can make one happy is a common error. Utltimately the problem is neither men nor women, it is a problem of the heart.

Mayavadis tell us to eliminate relationships altogether, to not care who does what job. They tend to skip over such things as "material". In devotional service, on the other hand, we learn about getting over that fear of becoming persons and the difficulties in relationships

We followers of Srila Prabhupada should know better than anyone else, therefore, that the discontent voiced by feminists is actually a lack of Krishna consciousness, which is also the root cause of this industrial society and its nuclear family model and all its feelings of isolation, depression, etc.

Prabhupada's books, on the other hand, give the ideal for human society to function which includes extended families and communities of elders to oversee unruly spouses, etc. To move forward, I had suggested we first of all take better care to avoid further advancing the materialistic woman's eternal discontent and work to promote Srila Prabhupada's desires for varnasrama instead.

As demonstrated by the Christian ladies who are putting these ideals into practice, following one's prescribed duty in Kali yuga CAN be successful. Isn't it about time ladies in ISKCON follow also?
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#59
+2 Narada Priya devi dasi 2013-04-13 17:30
PS And before anyone answers my question "Isn't it about time ladies in ISKCON follow also?" with the typical "But men should do it first", let me clarify: In material affairs, I believe women are far more powerful than men (Srimad Bhagavatam 3.31.38).
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#60
+5 Narada Priya devi dasi 2013-04-14 17:38
Here's another question: We are told that the duty of wife and mother is "external" or material, but then we are told by the same people that we should get college degrees and careers as our service.

Why is that?
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#61
-17 Krishnachandra Dasan 2013-06-09 12:45
Dear Mataji,

You may find this link interesting / useful in this regard:

Gender and Priesthood in the Hindu Traditions, by Vasudha Narayanan:

.../v iewco ntent .cgi? artic le=13 41&co ntext =jhcs

Although it is a more scholarly presentation, the author is from a multi-generational Vaishnava background.

Here is another one from a different author:

Can Women Be Priests? Brief Notes Toward an Argument From the Ancient Hindu World:

.../v iewco ntent .cgi? artic le=13 40&co ntext =jhcs


Hope this helps...

Ys

Krishnachandra Dasan. \|/
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#62
+17 Mohan 2013-06-12 01:20
In response to #61

Those links didn’t work very well, but I googled the titles and downloaded them and read them both. The following is my impression.

Vasudha Narayanan may be from a Vaisnava background but she clearly is not a practicing vaisnava who follows the guru parampara. There are plenty of so-called Iyengar girls today who smoke, drink, eat meat and are promiscuous so bringing up her family background is only a disappointment because we see that she is not representative of Vaisnavism. I do not find her a credible person.

She herself clearly states that when she first went to Harvard divinity school she didn’t see what all the fuss was when pressed if women could be priests. It was only later after she was indoctrinated into feminism that she “nuanced” things differently. In other words she was now a feminist and saw the world through the lens of gender struggle. Both her text and the one by Laurie Patton reek of bodily consciousness and struggle for power. It has nothing to do with becoming a pure devotee of Lord Krsna. But I get ahead of myself.

What do I learn from these texts? That I should ignore the teachings of guru, sadhu and sastra as presented in the guru parampara and simply accept as my guiding principle a bunch of hodge-podge ideas wrapped in feminist ideology.

They look for any tiny exception to the rule and want to use that to establish a new rule. That is called cheating. Sort of like the feminists who lobbied for abortion by bringing cases where women were pregnant because of rape or cases of incest; or cases where the life of the mother was in danger. These cases account for perhaps 1% of abortions if that, but is used to justify abortion on demand and the murder of 10s of millions of innocent babies. This is their logic. And you go along with it. I don’t because it is not logic it is mass hysteria and political correctness.

Vasudha Narayanan wrongly states “obviously, there are women Brahmins.” Women have no varna. They are a class of their own. A woman is called a member of a certain varna based on whether her male guardian is a member of that varna. The male is entitled to do the work of that varma not the female, for her they have their own dharma – Stri-dharma – no matter what varna he husband may be.

She claims that “in ISKCON initiation of women into Brahmin-hood is not common.” Actually it doesn’t happen at all because women cannot be Brahmins. They are designated as brahminis solely on the basis of if her husband is a Brahmin, not independently. There are plenty of quotes by Srila Prabhupada to support that. (We of course still respect the words of our acarya while ISKCON feminists make a career of contradicting him.)

continued
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#63
+16 Mohan 2013-06-12 01:24
part 2

Another point about these texts is that they take for examples very heterodox apasampradayas that have nothing to do with authentic Vedic paramparas and you expect us to follow them? No. You go ahead but not me. I wont. She gives as examples organizations consisting of people who she describes as ignorant and uneducated but who you now want to follow. An organization started by a man who tricked all these ignorant and uneducated women to follow him – we can just imagine what tantrik games he and his harem are playing – shaktas are big on vama-tantra.

And of course they think it is ok if a woman is bleeding during her period that she is not impure. If you were wearing a diaper full of stool would you be ritually pure to do any type of archana? But they think a woman during her period is clean. She thinks that only men think that menstruation is polluting but that women think it is pure. Well I didn’t really know how polluting it was until the women in my family started telling me about how dirty they felt and I had to tell them to stop before I became ill. Then I understood why women considered it dirty. Just as any sane person would consider themselves dirty if they were wearing diapers loaded with stool and urine. To consider yourself clean in such a condition is a symptom of a mental disease.

She complains that male priests are sloppy, corrupt, greedy etc and promotes the feminist myth that women are better. But one thing that one notices in socialist India with its promoting of females into leadership positions it the large number of greedy and corrupt female leaders. It was not noticeable before because the females were kept in check but they will be much worse than the men because their material desire is 9 times that of men.

She writes: “ISKCON temples, too, have women participating in some priestly functions. They regularly show the arati in front of the main altar -- which women cannot do in many temples in India.”

As a supposed scholar it seems she doesn’t know that according to pancaratrika agama women and sudras are allowed to worship the deity in the home. The vast majority of ISKCON “temples” operate on a “home” standard, not pancaratrika “temple” standard. In ISKCON’s main temples such as Mayapura, Juhu, and Vrndavana ISKCON follows much stricter pancaratrika “temple” standards. What it means is that as ISKCON gets more mature and wants to increase it standards then women will no longer be doing the puja at the “temple,” but only in their own home.

The second author is even worse she describes herself as a “feminist mimamsaka” so we can be sure that there will be a bias to her materialistic world view based on her bodily designation of woman and feminist.

continued...
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#64
+16 Mohan 2013-06-12 01:27
part 3

The academics are the furthest from the truth. That you have brought them forward as some kind evidence actually discredits you. Did you get it from that feminist Gaura Keshava Dasa aka Keshavan as he style himself in Sri Vaisnava circles?

Back to the academics: these are people who like to discuss their latest translation of the Gita over a bottle of wine and veal cutlets. Laurie Patton in the second half of her article was speculating at the speed of light and to anyone who has lived a Vedic life she comes across as incoherent and in need of adjusting her medication. But what do you expect from someone who looks at Krsna’s Vedic civilization through the prism of Marxist feminist gender struggle.

To get a better idea of what feminism is about see “You Don’t Know Feminism”

http
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#65
+15 Mohan 2013-06-12 02:17
reference #44

Quoting Prem Nidhi Dasa:
In ancient India, women occupied a very important position, in fact a superior position to, men. It is a culture whose only words for strength and power are feminine -"Shakti'' means "power'' and "strength.'' All male power comes from the feminine. Literary evidence suggests that kings and towns were destroyed because a single woman was wronged by the state. For example, Valmiki's Ramayana teaches us that Ravana and his entire clan was wiped out because he abducted Sita. Veda Vyasa's Mahabharatha teaches us that all the Kauravas were killed because they humiliated Draupadi in public. Elango Adigal's Sillapathigaram teaches us Madurai, the capital of the Pandyas was burnt because Pandyan Nedunchezhiyan mistakenly killed her husband on theft charges.

In Vedic times women and men were equal as far as education and religion was concerned. Women participated in the public sacrifices alongside men. One text mentions a female rishi Visvara. Some Vedic hymns, are attributed to women such as Apala, the daughter of Atri, Ghosa, the daughter of Kaksivant or Indrani, the wife of Indra. Apparently in early Vedic times women also received the sacred thread and could study the Vedas. The Haritasmrti mentions a class of women called brahmavadinis who remained unmarried and spent their lives in study and ritual. Panini's distinction between arcarya (a lady teacher) and acaryani (a teacher's wife), and upadhyaya (a woman preceptor) and upadhyayani ( a preceptor's wife) indicates that women at that time could not only be students but also teachers of sacred lore. He mentions the names of several noteworthy women scholars of the past such as Kathi, Kalapi, and Bahvici. The Upanishads refer to several women philosophers, who disputed with their male colleagues such as Vacaknavi, who challenged Yajnavalkya. The Rig Veda also refers to women engaged in warfare. One queen Bispala is mentioned, and even as late a witness as Megasthenes (fifth century B.C. E.) mentions heavily armed women guards protecting Chandragupta's palace.


Dear Prema Nidhi Prabhu,

Hare Krsna. You seemed to be very confused when it comes to philosophy. You state that the feminine is more powerful than the male etc etc. That would then mean that Krsna is subordinate to all His saktis. The actual philosophy is that the Purusha possesses Shakti, that they belong to the Purusha. You present a philosophy which ultimately ends in materialism - that matter generates life. In any case you are an example of someone who has not closely studied the teaching of our ararcyas or listened to the lectures of Srila Prabhupada.

continued...
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#66
+17 Mohan 2013-06-12 02:19
part 2

Then you mentioned as example of female shakti that whole dynasties were destroyed on account of women, that being Sita, Draupadi etc. But what you forgot to mention that in case of Draupadi and Sita that these women were pati vratas or pati devanams (SB 7.11.25) women who worshipped their husbands as good as God (of course in the case of Sita He actually was God). These women and others like them (Gandhari comes to mind) had power because they strictly followed Stri-dharma and were not trying to compete with men. They did there own dharma Stri-dharma (SB 7.11.25-29) and not the dharma of men.

Women could go gurukula in special cases until the time of puberty at which time they moved to home of the husbands. It was then the duty of the husband to educate his wife who was his primary student in his ashrama. Women may have been at the sacrifices, almost anyone can attend, and they do so even today, but they were not the performers of the sacrifices. So you are making a lot out of nothing.

Approximately 10% of Vedic mantras were revealed by rishikas wives of the Rishis, or celestial women. These were not ordinary human women, just as the males who revealed the Vedic mantras were not ordinary humans. So again these women what to speak of men, cannot be imitated.

You mention women getting upanayanam in ancient times. Well in ancient times the Mahabharata reveals that Brahmanas also drank wine and women could cohabit with any man. But that was considered to be in previous kalpas even at the time of Mahabharata in dvapara yuga. So you are citing example of some previous manvantara, mahayuga, kalpa or even different brahmanda.

Harita Smriti exists only in fagments, it is one of many dharma sastras of which there are more than 20. It is not an important one except for feminists who blow it way out of proportion. For the current Manvantara the most important dharma sastra is Manu Smriti and second to that is Parasara Samhita, and next to that is Yajnavalkhya Smriti everything else is not applicable in this Manvantara.

We also note that you do not give any references you just say that Rig Veda refers to women engaging in warfare, please prove it. Or maybe you are referring to Durga devi, consort of Lord Siva who killed many demons. She of course is not a human female, but the sister of Lord Krsna.

As for women who disputed with males, where is the news in that? Wives have been arguing with their husbands since time began. As for Vacaknavi and Yajnavalkhya we note that she didn’t win. In Janaka Maharaja’s sabha Yajnavalkhya defeated all the contenders.


continued
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#67
+16 Mohan 2013-06-12 02:25
part 3

The armed female guards you refer to were imported from the West to guard the female quarters. Of course in recent times Gaddafi had a (harem) of female bodyguards who protected and ministered to him. Of course it didn’t help much when he was hunted down and executed.

We also note that you refer to the glorious past but forget that this is kali yuga where things only get worse not better.

All in all you seem to be simply regurgitating an unconvincing a salad of feminist verbiage.

Yours in service to Prabhupada

Mohan das
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#68
+7 Mohan 2013-06-12 02:34
Quoting Narada Priya devi dasi:


Yes, women can thank the feminists for being forced to fend for themselves. Prabhupada also said the feminists' plan was a dumb one because it encouraged irresponsibility in men; the women ended up being duped. More men than ever are thinking twice about marriage, realizing they risk losing half of everything they earn plus their kids if they can't control a crazy wife, either, or realizing they can get plenty of free sex with so many desperate women running around.


It was not a "dumb plan," in that this was an accidental negative result, it was what they actually intended to do because they wanted to destroy the family unit and they have largely succeeded in doing that.

It is much easier to control and manipulate people who do not have family support to fall back on.


Mohan
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#69
-10 Krishnachandra Dasan 2013-06-15 14:45
Dear Govinda Mataji,

In relation to the issues you have pointed out, you may find these links interesting / useful:

Gender and Priesthood in the Hindu Traditions:

.../v iewco ntent .cgi? artic le=13 41&co ntext =jhcs

Although it is a more scholarly presentation, the author is from a multi-generational Vaishnava background.

Here is another one from a different author:

Can Women Be Priests? Brief Notes Toward an Argument From the Ancient Hindu World

.../v iewco ntent .cgi? artic le=13 40&co ntext =jhcs

This is a very interesting discussion about two prominent women in Vaishnavism with Professor Vasudha Narayanan (University of Florida, USA and HH Tamal Krishna Goswami Visiting Fellow, President of the American Academy of Religion [2001] -

A poet and a philosopher: Two women in the Sri-Vaishnava tradition, by Professor Vasudha Narayanan:

.../p oet-a nd-ph iloso pher- two-w omen- sri-v aishn ava-t radit ion

Here are some interesting excerpts from various books on the issues of men and women in the Vedic and Puranic era’s –

The Husband & Wife in the Vedic Era:

“The wife had an appointed place in a sacrifice from which she would speak as a house-mistress to the gathered people. (Rg. 5:10:85. 24. 10:85. 26). Her sovereignty over the other elderly members of the house was equal with her husband. (Rg. 10:85. 46)”!

https

Women in the Vedic Age — her Status and Functions:

https

Women's functions in the Vedic & Epic ages:

https

Women in the Vedic Era – How their position changed:

https

The veiling of Women :

https

If you are interested we can direct you to many more similar texts and references.

Hope you find these links useful…

Ys,

Krishnachandra Dasan.


[quote name="Govinda Dasi"]
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#70
+9 Bhakti 2013-06-16 04:57
Quoting Krishnachandra Dasan:
Dear Govinda Mataji,

In relation to the issues you have pointed out, you may find these links interesting / useful:

Gender and Priesthood in the Hindu Traditions:

.../v iewco ntent .cgi? artic le=13 41&co ntext =jhcs

Although it is a more scholarly presentation, the author is from a multi-generational Vaishnava background.

Here is another one from a different author:

Can Women Be Priests? Brief Notes Toward an Argument From the Ancient Hindu World

.../v iewco ntent .cgi? artic le=13 40&co ntext =jhcs


Ys,

Krishnachandra Dasan.


[quote name="Govinda Dasi"]


Mohan Prabhu already gave an accurate comment on these two texts -- they are trash. Yet you push them again. What is your agenda? Consdering the quality of those two texts we wonder what the others are like? Are they just as bad and irrelavant? For someone who is supposed to be coming from Sri Vaisnava tradition you seem to be pushing a decidedly feminist position.

We are much more interested in the views of people who actually practice the tradition as opposed to secular academics like Vasudha Narayanan who are just karmis. Or at the most Vaisnava bandhus -- related to a Vaisnava but not one herself.

Why is it that you think such persons who are not in the mainstream of vaisnavism are important sources of knowledge when she is a self confessed karmi feminist? What are trying to achieve? Do you also want us to become karmi feminists.


Also why did you not respond to Mohan's comments about the texts you posted?
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#71
+11 atma 2013-06-16 05:15
As explained in the beginning of the Mahabharata and also in Jiva Gosvami's Tattva Sandharma, that the Vedas are fearful of those who approach her without going through the Puranas and Itihasas. So if we want to understand in truth how Vedic ladies should behave their duties etc, then it should be understood via the Mahabharata, ramayana and especially via the Srimad Bhagavatam.

Definitely not by quoting little snippets from various Vedas. And definitely not if it s done by people like Vasudha Nayaranan who want to give us the feminist slant on it. It will then just be an exercise in feminist propaganda.
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#72
+10 atma 2013-06-16 05:18
BTW isn't the person who runs www.f acebo ok.co m/... / a homosexual, that is never married, never a grhasta?

How can a non-grhasta perform any sacred rites?

And we can not fail to note that like like many homosexuals they support feminism. They certainly do not support family life and varna ashrama.
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#73
+8 shyama 2013-06-16 06:40
Quoting atma:
As explained in the beginning of the Mahabharata and also in Jiva Gosvami's Tattva Sandharma, that the Vedas are fearful of those who approach her without going through the Puranas and Itihasas. So if we want to understand in truth how Vedic ladies should behave their duties etc, then it should be understood via the Mahabharata, ramayana and especially via the Srimad Bhagavatam.

Definitely not by quoting little snippets from various Vedas. And definitely not if it s done by people like Vasudha Nayaranan who want to give us the feminist slant on it. It will then just be an exercise in feminist propaganda.


I agree with you about the uselessness of relying on academics in most cases they are the enemies of Vaisnavism, with only a few exceptions. She is not one of them.
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#74
+7 shyama 2013-06-16 06:47
Quoting atma:
As explained in the beginning of the Mahabharata and also in Jiva Gosvami's Tattva Sandharma, that the Vedas are fearful of those who approach her without going through the Puranas and Itihasas. So if we want to understand in truth how Vedic ladies should behave their duties etc, then it should be understood via the Mahabharata, ramayana and especially via the Srimad Bhagavatam.


I think this is the section from Mahabharata that you are referring to:

Then the greatly glorious Vyasa, addressing Brahma Parameshthi, said, "O divine Brahma, by me a poem hath been composed which is greatly respected. The mystery of the Veda, and what other subjects have been explained by me; the various rituals of the Upanishads with the Angas; the compilation of the Puranas and history formed by me and named after the three divisions of time, past, present, and future; the determination of the nature of decay, fear, disease, existence, and non-existence, a description of creeds and of the various modes of life; rule for the four castes, and the import of all the Puranas; an account of asceticism and of the duties of a religious student; the dimensions of the sun and moon, the planets, constellations, and stars, together with the duration of the four ages; the Rik, Sama and Yajur Vedas; also the Adhyatma; the sciences called Nyaya, Orthoephy and Treatment of diseases; charity and Pasupatadharma; birth celestial and human, for particular purposes; also a description of places of pilgrimage and other holy places of rivers, mountains,, forests, the ocean, of heavenly cities and the kalpas; the art of war; the different kinds of nations and languages: the nature of the manners of the people; and the all-pervading spirit;--all these have been represented. But, after all, no writer of this work is to be found on earth.'

...

"By the aid of history and the Puranas, the Veda may be expounded; but the Veda is afraid of one of
little information lest he should it. The learned man who recites to other this Veda of Vyasa reapeth
advantage. It may without doubt destroy even the sin of killing the embryo and the like. He that readeth this holy chapter of the moon, readeth the whole of the Bharata, I ween. The man who with reverence daily listeneth to this sacred work acquireth long life and renown and ascendeth to heaven.

continued...
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#75
+6 shyama 2013-06-16 06:55
continued

"In former days, having placed the four Vedas on one side and the Bharata on the other, these were
weighed in the balance by the celestials assembled for that purpose. And as the latter weighed heavier than the four Vedas with their mysteries, from that period it hath been called in the world Mahabharata (the great Bharata). Being esteemed superior both in substance and gravity of import it is denominated Mahabharata on account of such substance and gravity of import. He that knoweth its meaning is saved from all his sins.

'Tapa is innocent, study is harmless, the ordinance of the Vedas prescribed for all the tribes are harmless,the acquisition of wealth by exertion is harmless; but when they are abused in their practices it is then that they become sources of evil.'"

The Mahabharata, Book 1: Adi Parva: Section I

So this shows that we must study the Vedas only through texts like Mahabharata and not just by taking quotes out of context here there and slapping them together to arrived at a predetermined conclusion. That would abuse which is a source of evil.
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#76
+7 mohan 2013-06-16 07:00
Quoting atma:
BTW isn't the person who runs www.f acebo ok.co m/... / a homosexual, that is never married, never a grhasta?

How can a non-grhasta perform any sacred rites?

And we can not fail to note that like like many homosexuals they support feminism. They certainly do not support family life and varna ashrama.



This is a very good point. in the texts he compiled there were many quotes about how the grhasta needs to have wife to perform yana etc and it is well known that only a grhasta can be a Rtvik and perform homas for otehrs. So how is this non-grastha homosexual doing these things? How adharmik!
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#77
+2 Krishnachandra Dasan 2013-06-16 14:47
NO I'M NOT GAY AND YES I AM HAPPILY MARRIED...THANK YOU!

YOU HAVE MIXED ME UP WITH 'SOMEONE' ELSE!

YS,

kRISHNACHANDRA DASAN. \|/

www.f acebo ok.co m/... /


Quoting mohan:
Quoting atma:
BTW isn't the person who runs www.f acebo ok.co m/... / a homosexual, that is never married, never a grhasta?

How can a non-grhasta perform any sacred rites?

And we can not fail to note that like like many homosexuals they support feminism. They certainly do not support family life and varna ashrama.



This is a very good point. in the texts he compiled there were many quotes about how the grhasta needs to have wife to perform yana etc and it is well known that only a grhasta can be a Rtvik and perform homas for otehrs. So how is this non-grastha homosexual doing these things? How adharmik!
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#78
+3 Atma 2013-06-16 15:39
Quoting Krishnachandra Dasan:
NO I'M NOT GAY AND YES I AM HAPPILY MARRIED...THANK YOU!

YOU HAVE MIXED ME UP WITH 'SOMEONE' ELSE!

YS,

kRISHNACHANDRA DASAN. \|/

www.f acebo ok.co m/... /


Quoting mohan:
Quoting atma:
BTW isn't the person who runs www.f acebo ok.co m/... / a homosexual, that is never married, never a grhasta?

How can a non-grhasta perform any sacred rites?

And we can not fail to note that like like many homosexuals they support feminism. They certainly do not support family life and varna ashrama.



This is a very good point. in the texts he compiled there were many quotes about how the grhasta needs to have wife to perform yana etc and it is well known that only a grhasta can be a Rtvik and perform homas for otehrs. So how is this non-grastha homosexual doing these things? How adharmik!



Sorry for the mixup, but I saw a picture of that guy on the site, can't recall his name, who is gay, and quite prominent in promoting a deviant version of Sri Vaisnavism in Australia -- not vadagalai or tenkalai, but his own creation.

Anyway, kali yuga marches on.
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#79
-2 Krishnachandra Dasan 2013-06-16 15:59
Mutual rights and duties of husband and wife -

Manu (IX.101-102) lays down in a concise form the obligations of husband and wife:

So many nice quotes are here from the sastras how the husband and wife work together to offer sacrifice. How the wife can offer bali (rice balls) into the fire in the absence of the husband and look after the rites and rituals when required, the list goes on and on ad infinitum!


" In the gṛhya fire kindled at marriage one was to offer the daily mahāyajñas (Gaut.5.6-8) and as regards bali-haraṇa. Gobhila gr. (I.4.16-19) says that both husband and wife should offer bali's, or a brāhmaṇa may offer for them, or the wife may offer in the evening and the husband in the morning"!


"She (the wife) had a hand in the religious rites. She had to perform many acts in sacrifices, such as unhusking grain in sthālipāka (vide Hir. gr. I.23.3), washing the slaughtered animal (Sat.Br. III.8.2 and Gobhila gr III.10.29) and looking at the ājya in śrauta sacrifices, etc."!


We can see how in the Aśvamedha yajna, the wife anoints the horse, how in marriage the bride offers handfuls of fried grain into fire. It has already been seen that the Āp.Dh. S. (II.6.13.17-19) requires that from the time of marriage the husband and wife work together in religious acts, that they share the reward of such acts together and that they both have dominion over the wealth of the family and that the wife can make gifts in the absence of the husband if occasion necessitates.


The Aśv. gr. (1.8.5) prescribes that:


"The fire kindled at marriage is carried by the married pair to their home (in a vessel) and that (I.9.1-8) since the day of marriage, the husband should worship the domestic fire himself or his wife or his son or his daughter or pupil (may offer worship in his absence)"!


Plenty more where that came from....

ys,

KCD (TKG). \|/
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#80
+9 Krishnachandra Dasan 2013-06-16 16:35
Vedeshhupaurushham sooktam
puraNeshu ca vaishNavam;
Bharate Bhagavad geeta
dharma shaastreshu maanavam.

"Among the hymns of the Vedas, the Purusha Sukta is the highest; among the puranas Vishnu Purana is the best; among the sections of the Mahabharata, the Bhagavad Gita is the crest jewel; and among the law books the Manu dharma shastra is the greatest"!

“Whatever law has been ordained for any (person) by Manu, that has been fully declared in the Veda: for that (sage was) omniscient”! [v.2.7.].

But a learned man after fully scrutinizing all this with the eye of knowledge, should, in accordance with the authority of the revealed texts, be intent on (the performance of) his duties. [v.2.8.].

For that man who obeys the law prescribed in the revealed texts and in the sacred tradition, gains fame in this (world) and after death unsurpassed bliss. [v.2.9.].

But by Sruti (revelation) is meant the Veda, and by Smriti (tradition) the Institutes of the sacred law: those two must not be called into question in any matter, since from those two the sacred law shone forth. [v.2.10.].

Every twice-born man, who, relying on the Institutes of dialectics, treats with contempt those two sources (of the law), must be cast out by the virtuous, as an atheist and a scorner of the Veda. [v.2.11.].

“The Veda, the sacred tradition, the customs of virtuous men, and one’s own conscience, they declare to be visibly the fourfold means of defining the sacred law”! [v.2.12.].

What else does Manu say -

Manu-samhita - Doctrines to be rejected:

All those traditions (smriti) and those despicable systems of philosophy, which are not based on the Veda, produce no reward after death; for they are declared to be founded on Darkness. [v.12.95.].

All those (doctrines), differing from the (Veda), which spring up and (soon) perish, are worthless and false, because they are of modern date. [v.12.96.].

References in Srila Prabhupada's books to following the Manu-samhita -

SB 2.1.36, Purport: "The Manu-saṁhitā is the standard law book for humanity, and every human being is advised to follow this great book of social knowledge"!

Ref: .../M anu-s amhit a_(Bo oks)
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#81
-2 Krishnachandra Dasan 2013-06-16 16:50
EVERYONE CAN WORSHIP THE LORD-

The Pāñcarātra Agama is based upon the Vedic concept of varṇa-āśrama dharma, and agrees with most of the injunctions of the traditional Dharma śāstras. The difference is that the Agama does not bar anyone from the rites and sacraments.

There are four usages prescribed the four divisions of society, namely:

- For the Brahmins — Vedic rites and mantras are to be used;

- For the Kṣatriyas a combination of Vedic and Tantrik;

- For Vaiṣyas and śūdras only Tantrika rites and mantras are prescribed.

or alternatively everyone is entitled to use the Tantrika rites and mantras. Even śūdras can undergo the sacrament of initiation with the sacred thread (upanayana) using Tantrika mantras alone.


WOMEN DOING YAJNA'S IS ONE THING, WHAT ABOUT WOMEN AS GURU'S?

PEARLS OF WISDOM FROM MANU:

2.238. "He who possesses faith may receive pure learning even from a man of lower caste, the highest law even from the lowest, and an excellent wife even from a base family"!

2.239. "Even from poison nectar may be taken, even from a child good advice, even from a foe (a lesson in) good conduct, and even from an impure (substance) gold"!

2.240. "Excellent wives, learning, (the knowledge of) the law, (the rules of) purity, good advice, and various arts may be acquired from anybody"!

2.241. "It is prescribed that in times of distress (a student) may learn (the Veda) from one who is not a Brahmana; and that he shall walk behind and serve (such a) teacher, as long as the instruction lasts"!
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#82
+4 Krishnachandra Dasan 2013-06-16 17:38
APOLOGY ACCEPTED! ys KCD.

Sorry for the mixup, but I saw a picture of that guy on the site, can't recall his name, who is gay, and quite prominent in promoting a deviant version of Sri Vaisnavism in Australia -- not vadagalai or tenkalai, but his own creation.

Anyway, kali yuga marches on.
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#83
+1 Atma 2013-06-16 21:23
Quoting Krishnachandra Dasan:
APOLOGY ACCEPTED! ys KCD.

Sorry for the mixup, but I saw a picture of that guy on the site, can't recall his name, who is gay, and quite prominent in promoting a deviant version of Sri Vaisnavism in Australia -- not vadagalai or tenkalai, but his own creation.

Anyway, kali yuga marches on.


Now I recall, I think they call him "Rami" or something like that. He is originally from the middle East.
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#84
0 Shyama 2013-06-16 21:53
Quoting Krishnachandra Dasan:
EVERYONE CAN WORSHIP THE LORD-

The Pāñcarātra Agama is based upon the Vedic concept of varṇa-āśrama dharma, and agrees with most of the injunctions of the traditional Dharma śāstras. The difference is that the Agama does not bar anyone from the rites and sacraments.

There are four usages prescribed the four divisions of society, namely:

- For the Brahmins — Vedic rites and mantras are to be used;

- For the Kṣatriyas a combination of Vedic and Tantrik;

- For Vaiṣyas and śūdras only Tantrika rites and mantras are prescribed.

or alternatively everyone is entitled to use the Tantrika rites and mantras. Even śūdras can undergo the sacrament of initiation with the sacred thread (upanayana) using Tantrika mantras alone.


!



janma jayate sudra
samskara bhavet dvija
vedo pathad bhaved vipro
brahma janatiti brahmanaha

Everyone is born a sudra, by samskara one becomes a dvija, by study of the veda one becomes a vipra, and one who knows brahman is a brahmana.


SO EVERYONE IS BORN A SUDRA. Thus we wonder about your statement that sudra have special mantras for getting upanayanam. A satvik person if born in a sudra family can get upanayanam, but a tamasic person born in a brahmana family should not

There is no such thing as pancaratrik upanayanam, upanayanam is a Vaidik samskara not pancaratrik samskara. Ask any archaka in Srirangam if there is such a thing as pancaratrik upanayanam. All the ones I know (like Muralidharan Bhattar) told me they got Vaidika upanayanam at around 7-8 and then samasana (panca samskara) at around age 12.

Please provide pramana to support your position that Vaidika upanayanam can be done with Tantrika mantras.
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#85
0 Shyama 2013-06-16 22:15
Quoting Krishnachandra Dasan:



WOMEN DOING YAJNA'S IS ONE THING, WHAT ABOUT WOMEN AS GURU'S?

PEARLS OF WISDOM FROM MANU:

2.238. "He who possesses faith may receive pure learning even from a man of lower caste, the highest law even from the lowest, and an excellent wife even from a base family"!

2.239. "Even from poison nectar may be taken, even from a child good advice, even from a foe (a lesson in) good conduct, and even from an impure (substance) gold"!

2.240. "Excellent wives, learning, (the knowledge of) the law, (the rules of) purity, good advice, and various arts may be acquired from anybody"!

2.241. "It is prescribed that in times of distress (a student) may learn (the Veda) from one who is not a Brahmana; and that he shall walk behind and serve (such a) teacher, as long as the instruction lasts"!



First of all this is definitely OFF TOPIC. We request the moderators to keep comments on track by being ON TOPIC.

There are three types of gurus:

Vartmana pradarshika guru the one who shows the way -- like Suniti who urged Druva to go to the forest to seek Visnu.

Shiksha guru: who instructs the student about Vedic knowledge

Diksha guru: who initiates the student into the sampradaya.

The first 2 are not inconsistent with Stri-dharma, the last is. Hence in only very rare cases are there female diksha gurus in bonafide paramparas, however you will find more in apasampradayas where all kinds of deviations abound. Those who push for female diksha gurus invariably are deviants from the true path of the guru parampara. They are persons who could not rid their consciousness of modern "isims" like "feminism" they have deep feminist samskara on their soul which will keep them in samsara because they have misapprehended the tattva.

Your last example Manu 2.241 refers only to studying the Vedas from a kshatriya or vaishya since these two are also dvijas and learned the Veda in the guru kula, it doesn't refer to women at all. Though brahmanas, vaisya and kshatriya are allowed to study the Veda, perform yajna for themselves, and give charity; only a brahmana is allowed to teach the veda to others, perform sacrifice for others and accept charity. But in dire straights one can study the Veda from a kshatriya or vaisya.

It seems that you have a lot of feminist samskara on your psyche. This creates a filter when trying to understand the sastra. Instead of understanding the direct meaning you filter it through feminist world view. Tragic. Fortunately the spiritual path this is a multi-life time endevor and you will have other lives to purify yourself from such upadis like feminism.
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#86
0 Shyama 2013-06-16 22:26
Quoting Krishnachandra Dasan:
Mutual rights and duties of husband and wife -

Manu (IX.101-102) lays down in a concise form the obligations of husband and wife:

So many nice quotes are here from the sastras how the husband and wife work together to offer sacrifice. How the wife can offer bali (rice balls) into the fire in the absence of the husband and look after the rites and rituals when required, the list goes on and on ad infinitum!


" In the gṛhya fire kindled at marriage one was to offer the daily mahāyajñas (Gaut.5.6-8) and as regards bali-haraṇa. Gobhila gr. (I.4.16-19) says that both husband and wife should offer bali's, or a brāhmaṇa may offer for them, or the wife may offer in the evening and the husband in the morning"!


"She (the wife) had a hand in the religious rites. She had to perform many acts in sacrifices, such as unhusking grain in sthālipāka (vide Hir. gr. I.23.3), washing the slaughtered animal (Sat.Br. III.8.2 and Gobhila gr III.10.29) and looking at the ājya in śrauta sacrifices, etc."!


....
\|/


What exactly is your point? Especially with all the "!"'s

Yes the husband and wife work together but the husband is the dominant partner and the wife the submissive partner. The wife is the main student in her husband's grhasta ASHRAMA. It is his ashrama NOT hers. Just as he was the menial servant in the ashrama of his guru, she is the menial servant in teh ashrama of her pati guru. She is his dharma patni.

'In the house where the woman acts like a man or where the man is controlled
by a woman, one's spiritual life is fruitless and the place becomes
inauspicious. For one whose wife is harsh in speech and action and who loves
to quarrel, the forest is more favorable than the home. Since it is easy to
get water, fruits, and peace in the forest, it is considered more auspicious
than being with a mean wife. Those who are puppets in the hands of their
wives are never sanctified, even by cremation. A henpecked husband is not
liable to receive the results of any auspicious activities that he performs.
The demigods and people of earth always criticize him and he is bereft of
fame and glory, so he should be considered dead, though living in the body."

Spoken by Lord Visnu in Brahma-vaivarta Purana, Prakrti-khanda 6.62-63
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#87
0 Atma 2013-06-16 22:30
Quoting Krishnachandra Dasan:
Mutual rights and duties of husband and wife -

Manu (IX.101-102) lays down in a concise form the obligations of husband and wife:

So many nice quotes are here from the sastras how the husband and wife work together to offer sacrifice. How the wife can offer bali (rice balls) into the fire in the absence of the husband and look after the rites and rituals when required, the list goes on and on ad infinitum!


" In the gṛhya fire kindled at marriage one was to offer the daily mahāyajñas (Gaut.5.6-8) and as regards bali-haraṇa. Gobhila gr. (I.4.16-19) says that both husband and wife should offer bali's, or a brāhmaṇa may offer for them, or the wife may offer in the evening and the husband in the morning"!





Plenty more where that came from....

ys,

KCD (TKG). \|/



What does this have to do with the topic of this article about women offering yajna? Manu is very clear that they can't. You have not offered anything that supersedes Manu, because it doesn't exist. And if it did contradict Manu we would reject it because from mimamsaka view point Manu is a more robust authority.

So what exactly is your point?
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#88
+3 Krishnachandra Dasan 2013-06-17 13:55
[quote name="Atma"][quote name="Krishnachandra Dasan"]

"You have not offered anything that supersedes Manu, because it doesn't exist"!


The Parashar Smriti -

The Smriti created by the sage Parashara and known by his name as 'Parashara Smriti is the most benevolent for the modern Kali Yuga. Parashara has himself said:

KRITE TU MANAVO DHARMASTRETAYAAM GAUTAMO SMRITAH ||
DWAPARE SHANKHALIKHITAA KALAU PARASHARAH SMRITAH ||

Meaning - "Manu Smriti was most relevant in Satya-yuga. In Treta-yuga, the Smriti created by Gautama had most relevance whereas in Dwapara-yuga, Shankha's Smriti was mostly recognized. But in Kali-yuga, it is the Parashara Smriti that by and large shows the way to the ignorant people"!

The Parashara Smriti endorses all those ideologies of human life which are capable of improving the life of common people in the present fourth age. Paradoxes are the main feature of human life in Kali Yuga irrespective of region, culture and society.

INDICATIONS OF KALI YUGA -

The Sage Parashara was the father of Sri Veda-vyasa. In the first chapter of this great treatise, Maharshi Veda-vyasa requests his father to create such an ideologically and morally sufficient discipline that will help the people in Kali-yuga to overcome their woes.

SARVADHARMOHA KRITE JATAH SARVE NASHTAH KALAU YUGE ||
CHAATURVARNYAM SAMAACHAARAM KINCHIT SAADHAARANAM VAD ||

Meaning- "All these religions were created in Satya-yuga and would be destroyed in Kali-yuga. Hence, kindly outline some ordinary religious norms so that all the four classes could run their lives in a religious way"!

Sage Parashara too was fully aware of the attenuation that religion would suffer in future on the basis of his deep knowledge, that great sage contemplated on the problems which he thought would imminently afflict the religion in Kali-yuga. Change is the only thing that remains constant in nature. Religion is also no exception to this rule, so says the Sage! \|/


Texts attributed to Sri Parashara Muni:

- Author of verses in the Ṛgveda: recorded as the author of RV 1.65-73 and part of RV 9.97.

- Parashara Smṛti (also called Parashara Dharma Saṃhitā): a code of laws which is stated in the text (1.24) to be for Kali Yuga.

- Speaker of the Viṣṇu Purana considered by scholars as one of the earliest Purāṇas.

- Speaker of the Bṛhat Parashara Horā Śāstra, also written as BPHS. It is considered a foundation text of astrology.

- Speaker of the Vṛkṣāyurveda ("the science of life of trees"), one of the earliest texts on botany. This text was considered to be an ancient botany primer for students of Traditional Indian Medicine.
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#89
+1 Bhakti 2013-06-17 13:56
Quoting Krishnachandra Dasan:



Plenty more where that came from....

ys,

KCD (TKG). \|/



"TKG" Does this mean you were once a disciple of Tamal Krsna Goswami?
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#90
+6 Krishnachandra Dasan 2013-06-17 14:22
[quote name="Atma"][quote name="Krishnachandra Dasan"]

"You have not offered anything that supersedes Manu, because it doesn't exist"!

Of course, apart from the Sri Parashara Smriti being the recognized dharma-sastra for Kali-yuga, we also have the 'Vishnu smriti', which is the dharma-sastra for 'Vaishnava's'!

Read more here: .../V ishnu _Smri ti
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#91
+8 Krishna dasa 2013-09-29 01:03
It's amazing to see the level of misandry, of MAN HATRED, in the comments here. It also serves to further prove the point- women do not possess logic, they do not possess a sense of honesty or integrity. Prabhupada said very clearly WOMEN ARE NEVER TO BE GIVEN FREEDOM.

Did you ladies miss that part in the Bhagavatam? Oh that's right, you're too busy reading feminist garbage and getting brainwashed by man-hating feminists, to spend time reading the scriptures.

American women on the whole are a very uncivilized and uncultured lot. Just look at the behavoir of women in America- 50 percent are having children outside of wedlock. There has never in history existed a more degenerate and sickening class of women than the modern day American/western woman.

The west is collapsing right now as a result of your Marxist feminist policies, and yet you ladies and manginas are so dumb, you still violently defend your cultural Marxist feminist beliefs.

I will laugh at you all when the West descends into total anarchy (it's almost there), while the Arab countries and India become more developed. Westerners are uncivilized barbarians.
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#92
-9 Hare Krishna 2013-09-29 04:20
"She claims that “in ISKCON initiation of women into Brahmin-hood is not common.” Actually it doesn’t happen at all because women cannot be Brahmins. "

In Iskcon brahma-gayatri mantra, that is brahmin diksha, is giving to women. This is not Vaishnava diksha. Vaishnava diksha is given via the Gopal Mantra, that everyone receives in Iskcon along with the Brahma Gayatri and the other mantras and gayatris.

Most other Gaudiya Vaishnava lines (outside of the Gaudiya Math) do not give the Brahma Gayatri mantra to anyone, male or female, during the rite of diksha. They simply give the traditional Vaishnava diksha mantras like Gopal Mantra and Kama Gayatri and often some other supplementary mantras and gayatris such as Gaura Mantra and Gaura Gayatri.

The archan-puja of Giriraja and Radha Krishna murtis is accomplished via Gopal Mantra, not Brahma Gayatri.

Brahma Gayatri is not required for worship of the Deity.

The introduction of Brahma Gayatri along with the Vaishnava diksha mantras was started by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur only to make a point to some local brahmins who were socially opposing Vaishnavas and Vaishnava diksha.

Brahma Gayatri is not now nor has ever been a traditional Gaudiya Vaishnava diksha mantra, nor used in the worship of Gaudiya Vaishnava deities.
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#93
0 Hare Krishna 2013-09-29 04:37
Shyama, please see my comment below regarding Gaudiya Vaishnava diksha and diksha mantras (which are tantrik).

Brahma Gayatri mantra and upanayanam has nothing to do with actual diksha in the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur added Brahma Gayatri along with the actual diksha mantra (Gopal Mantra), as a supplementary in response to some local brahmins who were criticising Gaudiya Vaishnavas at that time.

Before that, he was not giving Brahma Gayatri at the time of diksha. The Gaudiya Math and Iskcon are the only two lineages within the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya who do this.
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#94
-14 Hare Krishna Das Goswami 2013-10-02 23:12
Quoting Krishna dasa:
It's amazing to see the level of misandry, of MAN HATRED, in the comments here. It also serves to further prove the point- women do not possess logic, they do not possess a sense of honesty or integrity. Prabhupada said very clearly WOMEN ARE NEVER TO BE GIVEN FREEDOM.

Did you ladies miss that part in the Bhagavatam? Oh that's right, you're too busy reading feminist garbage and getting brainwashed by man-hating feminists, to spend time reading the scriptures.

American women on the whole are a very uncivilized and uncultured lot. Just look at the behavoir of women in America- 50 percent are having children outside of wedlock. There has never in history existed a more degenerate and sickening class of women than the modern day American/western woman.

The west is collapsing right now as a result of your Marxist feminist policies, and yet you ladies and manginas are so dumb, you still violently defend your cultural Marxist feminist beliefs.

I will laugh at you all when the West descends into total anarchy (it's almost there), while the Arab countries and India become more developed. Westerners are uncivilized barbarians.



The above sounds like MRA or MGTOW rhetoric. An exploitative and materialistic online "mens' rights" movement which is the complete opposite of anything having to do with Krishna Bhakti.
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#95
+8 shyama 2013-10-03 11:57
Quoting Hare Krishna:
"She claims that “in ISKCON initiation of women into Brahmin-hood is not common.” Actually it doesn’t happen at all because women cannot be Brahmins. "

In Iskcon brahma-gayatri mantra, that is brahmin diksha, is giving to women. This is not Vaishnava diksha. Vaishnava diksha is given via the Gopal Mantra, that everyone receives in Iskcon along with the Brahma Gayatri and the other mantras and gayatris.


Please find me even one quote anywhere where Srila Prabhupada says his female disciples are "brahmanas" except and unless their husbands are brahmanas. A woman can not be a brahmana because it is a material designation based on the guna and karma of the male not female body. For the female body they do not have to have to worry what their varna because they do not have a varna. Because unlike a man who depending on what his guna is there are different karmas and by definition varna means guna + karma. But for women no matter what their guna is they all have the same karma it is called "Stri Dharma" and is briefly describe by Narada Muni is SB 7.11.25-29 and other places in Bhagavatam and more elaborately in the Mahabharata and Ramayana.

Because the culturally barbaric feminists in the early ISKCON days threatened to boycott the temple if they were not given 2nd initiation Srila Prabhupada used a ploy to satisfy them but which would be recognized by later more cultured people what his real intent was. And what was that? Yes he gave them the mantra but refused to given the "upavita" -- the sacred thread -- the symbol of a brahmana because as Srila Prabhupada often said "women are not given brahminical culture."

So Srila Prabhupada's intent was clear, not to make them brahmanas or give them the gayatri because he never gave them the upavita. Had he done that then it would have been in complete disobedience of the sastras like Manu and Bhagavatam, which the Acarya is supposed to uphold.But because he was in an awkward situation surrounded by cultural barbarians and even worse half crazed feminists Srila Prabhupada simultaneously gave and not gave but this intent was not to give but just to pacify young feminist girls who were having a temper tantrum.

Further more as ISKCON matures and more people are diving into and learning the great culture of Krsna's Vedic civilization ISKCON will stop giving women savitri gayatri to women. In fact some gurus have already stopped doing so knowing what Srila Prabhupada's real intent, his "mano bhistam" was.
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#96
+9 bhaktilata 2013-10-03 12:15
Quoting Hare Krishna Das Goswami:
Quoting Krishna dasa:
It's amazing to see the level of misandry, of MAN HATRED, in the comments here. It also serves to further prove the point- women do not possess logic, they do not possess a sense of honesty or integrity. Prabhupada said very clearly WOMEN ARE NEVER TO BE GIVEN FREEDOM.

Did you ladies miss that part in the Bhagavatam? Oh that's right, you're too busy reading feminist garbage and getting brainwashed by man-hating feminists, to spend time reading the scriptures.

American women on the whole are a very uncivilized and uncultured lot. Just look at the behavoir of women in America- 50 percent are having children outside of wedlock. There has never in history existed a more degenerate and sickening class of women than the modern day American/western woman.

The west is collapsing right now as a result of your Marxist feminist policies, and yet you ladies and manginas are so dumb, you still violently defend your cultural Marxist feminist beliefs.

I will laugh at you all when the West descends into total anarchy (it's almost there), while the Arab countries and India become more developed. Westerners are uncivilized barbarians.



The above sounds like MRA or MGTOW rhetoric. An exploitative and materialistic online "mens' rights" movement which is the complete opposite of anything having to do with Krishna Bhakti.



I see nothing wrong with the observation. It is feminism which is demonic. In fact in the 16th chapter of the Gita the "divine and demonic" nature Srila Prabhupada focuses on feminism "the puffed up concept of women" as demonic. It was a prescient observation of his because feminism has become the dominant demonic ideology of modern times.

As for MRA and MGTOW they have my sympathy as they struggle with demonic feminism which is aided and abetted by effeminate male flunkies aka "manginas" like yourself who need female acknowledgement and have other psychological disorders.

Srila Prabhupada in his commentary on the 3rd canto in reference to the marriage of Devahuti and Kardamamuni specifically stated that "the male superiority complex must be respected."

Actually the MRA's and MGTOW are our allies in establishing Daivi Varnashrama Dharma, they can be a great help to us and thus help in spreading Krsna Consciousness by helping to destroy demonic feminism which is a great enemy of Krishna Bhakti and Daivi Varnashrama Dharma.
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#97
+8 Atma 2013-10-03 12:31
Quoting Krishnachandra Dasan:
[quote name="Atma"][quote name="Krishnachandra Dasan"]

"You have not offered anything that supersedes Manu, because it doesn't exist"!


The Parashar Smriti -

The Smriti created by the sage Parashara and known by his name as 'Parashara Smriti is the most benevolent for the modern Kali Yuga. Parashara has himself said:

KRITE TU MANAVO DHARMASTRETAYAAM GAUTAMO SMRITAH ||
DWAPARE SHANKHALIKHITAA KALAU PARASHARAH SMRITAH ||

Meaning - "Manu Smriti was most relevant in Satya-yuga. In Treta-yuga, the Smriti created by Gautama had most relevance whereas in Dwapara-yuga, Shankha's Smriti was mostly recognized. But in Kali-yuga, it is the Parashara Smriti that by and large shows the way to the ignorant people"!


I do not accept this quote it is either wrong or an interpolation. For one thing in Satya yuga there was no Varnashrama dharma as everyone on the level of siddhas and paramahamsa. VAD was introduced in Treta yuga. This automatically brings this quote into deep suspicion.

Aside form that VP Kane in his encylopediac work on Dharma Sastras nowhere mentions this quote but emphasises the supremacy of Manu by all.

Our Gaudiya acaryas accept as the top 3 dharma sastras as being 1 Manu 2 Parasara, 3 Yajnavalkhya. This doesn't mean we reject others like Visnu dharma sastra. But give preference to Manu.
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#98
-3 Hare Krishna Das Goswami 2013-10-04 20:48
Shyama, "Because the culturally barbaric feminists in the early ISKCON days threatened to boycott the temple if they were not given 2nd initiation "

By 2nd initiation do you mean "vaishnava diksha"? If so, women have ALWAYS been given vaishnava diksha. Again, the Brahma Gayatri is NOT vaishnava diksha. It never has been, nor is it now.

Please tell me your understanding of "vaishnava diksha" and the mantra or mantras it entails.

That way we can be clear about the topic. I have noticed many ISKCON devottees do not know what vaishnava diksha mantras are and they confuse them with something they call "brahmin initiation".
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#99
-11 Hare Krishna Das Goswami 2013-10-04 20:53
Shyama, "As for MRA and MGTOW they have my sympathy as they struggle with demonic feminism which is aided and abetted by effeminate male flunkies aka "manginas" like yourself who need female acknowledgement and have other psychological disorders.


Actually the MRA's and MGTOW are our allies in establishing Daivi Varnashrama Dharma, they can be a great help to us and thus help in spreading Krsna Consciousness by helping to destroy demonic feminism which is a great enemy of Krishna Bhakti and Daivi Varnashrama Dharma."

MRAs and MGTOW are primarily concerned with getting as much sex as they can from as many women as they can if they are unmarried, or daily sex from their wives if they are married. In fact, that is what they whine about on the net all day and night - not getting laid because all the women are chasing "alphas" and not them. Or not getting daily sex from their wives because she has lost interest.

Even MGTOWs specifically state they are not at all about celibacy but about being able to engage with as many women as they please "on their own terms".

I'm sure they are happy to have your "support".
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#100
-7 Hare Krishna Das Goswami 2013-10-04 21:04
Shyama, "Because the culturally barbaric feminists in the early ISKCON days threatened to boycott the temple if they were not given 2nd initiation"

Really? Who exactly threatened to boycott which temple? What are their names?

Secondly, what do you mean by 2nd initiation? Do you mean Vaishnava diksha? If so, why wouldn't they be given Vaishnava diksha?

Thirdly, are you under the impression that the Brahma Gayatri mantra is Vaishnava diksha?
If so, from where have you gleaned this misunderstanding?

"Srila Prabhupada used a ploy to satisfy them but which would be recognized by later more cultured people what his real intent was. And what was that? Yes he gave them the mantra but refused to given the "upavita" -- the sacred thread -- the symbol of a brahmana because as Srila Prabhupada often said "women are not given brahminical culture."

This makes no sense. Vaishnava diksha is not and has never been the Brahma Gayatri mantra. Why didn't Srila Prabhupada simply give them the Vaishnava diksha mantras then? No need at all for anyone to receive Brahma Gayatri as it is not a Gaudiya Vaishnava diksha mantra.

"So Srila Prabhupada's intent was clear, not to make them brahmanas or give them the gayatri because he never gave them the upavita. Had he done that then it would have been in complete disobedience of the sastras like Manu and Bhagavatam, which the Acarya is supposed to uphold.But because he was in an awkward situation surrounded by cultural barbarians and even worse half crazed feminists Srila Prabhupada simultaneously gave and not gave but this intent was not to give but just to pacify young feminist girls who were having a temper tantrum."

Again, who were these young feminist girls who were having temper tantrums? What were their names?

"Further more as ISKCON matures and more people are diving into and learning the great culture of Krsna's Vedic civilization ISKCON will stop giving women savitri gayatri to women. In fact some gurus have already stopped doing so knowing what Srila Prabhupada's real intent, his "mano bhistam" was."

Which ISKCON gurus have stopped giving this? Why aren't their disciples having "temper tantrums", or are they?

Again you seem to have confused Vaishnava diksha with something called "2nd initiation".
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#101
-10 Hare Krishna Das Goswami 2013-10-05 04:17
"The west is collapsing right now as a result of your Marxist feminist policies, and yet you ladies and manginas are so dumb, you still violently defend your cultural Marxist feminist beliefs."

The reason that this so called "Krishna das" is able to shamelessly use such crude American slang such as "mangina" on a Vaishnava website in front of and towards devottees of Krishna is because he is not at all practiced in Vaishnava culture or etiquette but is instead influenced by mainstream American pop-culture, particular "online culture", which in turn is highly influenced by pornography.

It is not only crass, low class and highly inappropriate, but completely in opposition to Vaishnava culture and values.
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#102
+5 shyama 2013-10-06 18:47
Quoting Hare Krishna Das Goswami:
Shyama, "Because the culturally barbaric feminists in the early ISKCON days threatened to boycott the temple if they were not given 2nd initiation "

By 2nd initiation do you mean "vaishnava diksha"? If so, women have ALWAYS been given vaishnava diksha. Again, the Brahma Gayatri is NOT vaishnava diksha. It never has been, nor is it now.

Please tell me your understanding of "vaishnava diksha" and the mantra or mantras it entails.

That way we can be clear about the topic. I have noticed many ISKCON devottees do not know what vaishnava diksha mantras are and they confuse them with something they call "brahmin initiation".



Upanayanama which is only given to young males at different ages depending on their guna is a Vaidika disksa. If they do not get upanayana by a certain age thet become vrtaya -- outcasts of the community. Upanayanam is for males only who display the three higher guna. (look it up in Manu)

The pancatras, which are from the ekanta section of the Vedas, specifically the Chandogya upanishad, as explained by Yamuna acarya and later in more depth by Vedanta Deshika describe "panca samskara" or "samasana" as it is also called by in the Sri Sampradaya.

Panca Samskara consists of urdhvapundra, tapan, dasyanama, yaga and mantra.

Urdhvapundra = vertical style of tilak used by different vaisnava sampradayas as opposed to tripundra = horizontal used by Saivas.

Tapana: in Madhvas and Sri samparada consists of "sankha chakra mudra dharana" applied to 5 (upperchest both sides, both arms and naval), 3 (both arms and naval) for males or 2 both arms for female. This means heating up the symbols of Lord Visnu until they become very hot and branding on the body. The Sris heat the brands for long time and hold it on skin for long time; it lasts for life. The Madhvas do it for shorter time with cooler brands it fades away after 6-12 months. In Gaudiya sampradaya BVT says we write names of Krsna on our body with tilaka and some say that kantimala is the same.


[Technically speaking one should not wear tilak or kantimala until AFTER one gets initiated. But this is generally ignored. But uninitiates are told to wear only 1 strand, and at diksha they are given new beads of 3 strands]

Yaga: they are given a Deity of the Lord to worship.

Mantra: they are given pancaratrik mantras to worship the lord. In Gaudiya sampradaya that means the guru bija, guru gayatri, Gaura bija, Gaura gayatri, kama bija and kama gayatri. Not the Savitri gayatri.


In all other sampradayas the aspirants are given them all at the same time. Any one who agrees to follow the principles of the sampradaya can get panca-samskara and are then allowed to worship the diety with the restriction that women and sudras can only worship at home (Isvara Samhita and Satavata Samhita).

continued
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#103
+7 shyama 2013-10-06 18:48
part 2

In all other sampradayas the aspirants are given them all at the same time. Any one who agrees to follow the principles of the sampradaya can get panca-samskara and are then allowed to worship the diety with the restriction that women and sudras can only worship at home (Isvara Samhita and Satavata Samhita).

This samskara is usually given at starting at about 10-12 years of age in Sri and other sampradayas. So for boys it is given several years after upanayanam. And for traditional girls it was given after marriage, since they got marriage at young age because for them vivaha was their upanayanam.

For his own reasons BSST decided to divide the panca samskara into two dikshas namely first and second.

In first he gave urdhva pundra, tapana and dasyanama. In the second he gave Yaga and Mantra.

Now since one can not give upanayanama to men who are vratyas, that is, gone past the age when upanayanam is allowed. This is clearly stated in texts like Manu (you can look it up for homework). But since these men have now taken a second birth by getting panca samskara they are now newly born and can now get upanayanam so BSST then gave these male a separate upanayanama samkara and imparted to them the savitri gayatari and bestowed on them the upavita, but not to the women.


So in GM and ISKCON 2nd initiation is the combination of two types of samskaras: for men the last two items of panca samskara [pancaratrika] and upanayama the savitri gayatri and upavita [Vaidika]. And, for women simply the last two parts of the panca samskara yaga and mantra --no savitri gayatri or upavita.

However to this day 2nd initiation has been given the misnomer of "Brahman initiation" I suppose because the vast majority of GM members were men, and even for Srila Prabhupada only 28% of his disciples were women (according to disciple statistics kept by Mahamaya dd).

So at the first 2nd initiation as recorded by SDG the women boycotted because they also wanted to be brahmans but of course they can not be unless they marry a brahmana.
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#104
+3 shyama 2013-10-06 18:51
Quoting Hare Krishna Das Goswami:
Shyama, "As for MRA and MGTOW they have my sympathy as they struggle with demonic feminism which is aided and abetted by effeminate male flunkies aka "manginas" like yourself who need female acknowledgement and have other psychological disorders.

.



Please read it again, that was written by someone else ( bhaktilata) not me.
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#105
+4 shyama 2013-10-06 18:55
Quoting Hare Krishna Das Goswami:
Shyama, "Because the culturally barbaric feminists in the early ISKCON days threatened to boycott the temple if they were not given 2nd initiation"

Really? Who exactly threatened to boycott which temple? What are their names?

Secondly, what do you mean by 2nd initiation? Do you mean Vaishnava diksha? If so, why wouldn't they be given Vaishnava diksha?

Thirdly, are you under the impression that the Brahma Gayatri mantra is Vaishnava diksha?
If so, from where have you gleaned this misunderstanding?

"Srila Prabhupada used a ploy to satisfy them but which would be recognized by later more cultured people what his real intent was. And what was that? Yes he gave them the mantra but refused to given the "upavita" -- the sacred thread -- the symbol of a brahmana because as Srila Prabhupada often said "women are not given brahminical culture."

This makes no sense. Vaishnava diksha is not and has never been the Brahma Gayatri mantra. Why didn't Srila Prabhupada simply give them the Vaishnava diksha mantras then? No need at all for anyone to receive Brahma Gayatri as it is not a Gaudiya Vaishnava diksha mantra.

"So Srila Prabhupada's intent was clear, not to make them brahmanas or give them the gayatri because he never gave them the upavita. Had he done that then it would have been in complete disobedience of the sastras like Manu and Bhagavatam, which the Acarya is supposed to uphold.But because he was in an awkward situation surrounded by cultural barbarians and even worse half crazed feminists Srila Prabhupada simultaneously gave and not gave but this intent was not to give but just to pacify young feminist girls who were having a temper tantrum."

Again, who were these young feminist girls who were having temper tantrums? What were their names?

"Further more as ISKCON matures and more people are diving into and learning the great culture of Krsna's Vedic civilization ISKCON will stop giving women savitri gayatri to women. In fact some gurus have already stopped doing so knowing what Srila Prabhupada's real intent, his "mano bhistam" was."

Which ISKCON gurus have stopped giving this? Why aren't their disciples having "temper tantrums", or are they?

Again you seem to have confused Vaishnava diksha with something called "2nd initiation".



Maybe you should spend a bit more time studying the early history of ISKCON before asking questions. Or, if you can't then at least be humble in asking your questions.
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#106
+7 shyama 2013-10-06 19:21
Quoting Hare Krishna Das Goswami:


Again, who were these young feminist girls who were having temper tantrums? What were their names?


Here is some history. As for the names of places and people, please do a little homework as to the situation of who was who in ISKCON 1966 and where our 2-3 temples were. (-:

***
Srila Prabhupada did not give women Brahmana diksa as is wrongly advertised by some. In 1998 Pradyumna in a personal conversation revealed that he was present at the first second initiation ceremony. At this second initiation ceremony Srila Prabhupada did not want to give the women second initiation. The young women heavily conditioned with the Western nescience that is feminism openly revolted against Srila Prabhupada and boycotted the temple for several days. Srila Prabhupada being concerned that his infant movement was in danger of destruction by such rebellious tendencies pacified the girls by having another initiation ceremony in which he gave them the gayatri mantra but not the sacred thread which is the emblem of a brahmana. This incident is confirmed in From Living with the Scriptures Ch. 9 by Satsvarupa dasa Gosvami (on Vedabase). The first brahmana initiation in Boston was for men only.

“The next morning Prabhupada held a second brahmana initiation ceremony. This was for the women, after they had made a feminist protest about being excluded.”

The only difference between Satsvarupa's and Pradyumna's description is the length of time the protest lasted, the former said one day the later said several days but aside from that no difference.

When the question arose as to why Srila Prabhupada had given them the mantra but not the sacred thread it was concluded by both of us that Srila Prabhupada was under pressure to do something he didn't want to do by disciples who were culturally challenged when it came to Lord Krsna's Vedic civilization. He didn't want his nascent movement impeded at its inception so taking the cue from Maharaja Ambarisa who drank water thus breaking and not breaking his ekadasi fast; Srila Prabhupada gave the mantra but didn't give the thread in the hope that future generations of devotees who were not so culturally backward could understand his predicament and his real intention of not giving them brahminical initiation. (It should however be clearly noted that Brahminical initiation is Vaidika diksa and only for men, the other part of second initiation in which include the guru bija, guru gayatri, gaura bija and gaura gayatri and kama bija and kama gayatri mantras is available to everyone regardless of gender.)
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#107
+8 bhaktilata 2013-10-06 19:40
Quoting Hare Krishna Das Goswami:
"The west is collapsing right now as a result of your Marxist feminist policies, and yet you ladies and manginas are so dumb, you still violently defend your cultural Marxist feminist beliefs."

The reason that this so called "Krishna das" is able to shamelessly use such crude American slang such as "mangina" on a Vaishnava website in front of and towards devottees of Krishna is because he is not at all practiced in Vaishnava culture or etiquette but is instead influenced by mainstream American pop-culture, particular "online culture", which in turn is highly influenced by pornography.

It is not only crass, low class and highly inappropriate, but completely in opposition to Vaishnava culture and values.


I (Bhaktilata dd) made that comment not someone else as you have wrongly concluded more than once.

Please get off your high horse. Both the feminist movement and its opponents are materialists. The feminist main two planks are lesbian rights and abortion -- all about sex. Just as capitalist and communists were both materialists but which countries did SP find friendly and where did he start his movement? In Moscow or Beijing? Or was it rather New York, Los Angeles and London?

As for "Mangina" it has many different meanings according to the context. It seems you didn't investigate that did you? In this context it means "men" who support feminism so that they can get praise form women in the hope of getting "favors" from them. Of course feminism is a low class and demonic mindset so naturally "manginas" -- men who support them -- are definitely crass and low class as you have pointed out but for a different reason.

You need to do a lot more homework about what is going in the world around you and not just read the first 1-2 links on a google SERP.
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#108
+8 bhaktilata 2013-10-06 20:11
Quoting Hare Krishna Das Goswami:
Shyama, "As for MRA and MGTOW they have my sympathy as they struggle with demonic feminism which is aided and abetted by effeminate male flunkies aka "manginas" like yourself who need female acknowledgement and have other psychological disorders.


Actually the MRA's and MGTOW are our allies in establishing Daivi Varnashrama Dharma, they can be a great help to us and thus help in spreading Krsna Consciousness by helping to destroy demonic feminism which is a great enemy of Krishna Bhakti and Daivi Varnashrama Dharma."

MRAs and MGTOW are primarily concerned with getting as much sex as they can from as many women as they can if they are unmarried, or daily sex from their wives if they are married. In fact, that is what they whine about on the net all day and night - not getting laid because all the women are chasing "alphas" and not them. Or not getting daily sex from their wives because she has lost interest.

Even MGTOWs specifically state they are not at all about celibacy but about being able to engage with as many women as they please "on their own terms".

I'm sure they are happy to have your "support".


First of all I wrote that not someone else.

I think that you are pretty clueless (not just about authors) about what is going in the world as a reaction to feminism.

Feminism doesn't stop men from having sex with women, in fact it has made it easier because feminism encourages women to be sluts. As the saying goes in USA/Canada/etc "If she doesn't sleep with you by the 3rd date, date someone else."

MRAs etc are concerned about the general demonization of men and mass cultural misandry in the media

tinyu rl.co m/... /

As well as getting completely shafted in the family courts and never seeing their children again.

[The fact that sex is very easy to obtain and that men are at great legal and financial risk if they get married are the primary reasons why men are on strike and marriage rates are plummeting. The only people who are eager to marry are the gays (-: ]

Affirmative action that totally favors women in education and career. The list goes on and on.

You are either completely ignorant about what has been going on for the last 40 years. Hopefully that can be remediated by education.

Or you are purposely making false statements.
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#109
+8 bhaktilata 2013-10-06 20:35
Quoting Hare Krishna Das Goswami:
Shyama, "As for MRA and MGTOW they have my sympathy as they struggle with demonic feminism which is aided and abetted by effeminate male flunkies aka "manginas" like yourself who need female acknowledgement and have other psychological disorders.


Actually the MRA's and MGTOW are our allies in establishing Daivi Varnashrama Dharma, they can be a great help to us and thus help in spreading Krsna Consciousness by helping to destroy demonic feminism which is a great enemy of Krishna Bhakti and Daivi Varnashrama Dharma."

MRAs and MGTOW are primarily concerned with getting as much sex as they can from as many women as they can if they are unmarried, or daily sex from their wives if they are married. In fact, that is what they whine about on the net all day and night - not getting laid because all the women are chasing "alphas" and not them. Or not getting daily sex from their wives because she has lost interest.

Even MGTOWs specifically state they are not at all about celibacy but about being able to engage with as many women as they please "on their own terms".

I'm sure they are happy to have your "support".



I made that comment not "Shyama"

Your statement shows that you are grossly misinformed about MRAs and MGTOW

Find out about MRA's at .../M en%27 s_rig hts_m oveme nt

The MRA are concerned about a host of issues where rampant injustice to men is the current standard.

.../M en%27 s_rig hts_m oveme nt#Is sues
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#110
+7 Baladeva 2013-10-07 16:12
Quoting Hare Krishna Das Goswami:
"The west is collapsing right now as a result of your Marxist feminist policies, and yet you ladies and manginas are so dumb, you still violently defend your cultural Marxist feminist beliefs."

The reason that this so called "Krishna das" is able to shamelessly use such crude American slang such as "mangina" on a Vaishnava website in front of and towards devottees of Krishna is because he is not at all practiced in Vaishnava culture or etiquette but is instead influenced by mainstream American pop-culture, particular "online culture", which in turn is highly influenced by pornography.

It is not only crass, low class and highly inappropriate, but completely in opposition to Vaishnava culture and values.


I agree with the others, you looked up the wrong definition for "mangina" in the feminist context. Here is a detailed definition of "Mangina" in regards to feminism:

.../m angin as-be traye rs-me n-133 92.ht ml

So it would seem that you should retract your statements and otherwise make amends.
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#111
-5 Hare Krishna Das Goswami 2013-10-07 21:21
"I agree with the others, you looked up the wrong definition for "mangina" in the feminist context."

I don't care bout any "definition for mangina" in any context.

This is a VAISHNAVA website.

Vaishnavas refer to each other as "prabhu", not "mangina".


"So it would seem that you should retract your statements and otherwise make amends"

I most certainly will not make amends for calling for vaisnava etiquette on a vaishnava website.
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#112
-4 Hare Krishna Das Goswami 2013-10-07 21:42
"Your statement shows that you are grossly misinformed about MRAs and MGTOW

Find out about MRA's at .../M en%27 s_rig hts_m oveme nt

The MRA are concerned about a host of issues where rampant injustice to men is the current standard."

The mens' rights activists who are pushing for legal changes to unjust laws regarding custody and other matters are different from the online "manosphere" that claims some connection to them, and loosely calls themselves "MRA" and "MGTOW". In fact, the activists who are actually doing political activism do not want to be conflated with the manosphere or the armchair MRAs and MGTOWs associated with it.

I have read websites by all three of the above parties. While as a Vaishnava I do not participate in any sort of materially conceived "activism", I empathize with exploited men, women and children everywhere. However, we know that the Vaishnava solution to exploitation is in opposition to any material solution. While I empathize with victims, I do not support their materially motivated activism.

Neither on the "bonafide" MRA sites (that are actually trying to change laws), nor on the faux MRA and MGTOW "manosphere" sites have I EVER seen anyone talk about the root cause of their suffering in this material world.

The only reference to "celibacy" is what they refer to as "incel". That is "involuntary celibacy". That means boys and men who want to have sex but cannot due to the inability to attract girls and women. This is seen not as a blessing but as a curse.

The married online faux MRA manosphere sites that claim to be "traditional" and even "Christian" are filled with men complaining about not getting daily sex from their wives! Even the old ones aged 50 and up.

In short, whether a "bonafide" MRA working to right legal injustices, or an online armchair manosphere MRA or MGTOW, their theories do not even remotely parallel the Vaishnava approach to human relationships, marriage, sexuality and love.

The concept of taking every situation as one's own karma and ultimately God's mercy, a blessing, and an arrangement for personal rectification, is lost on them.

The only reason why a Vaishnava should have anything to do with them is to try to teach them these things so they can end their suffering and bodily concept of life.
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#113
-5 Hare Krishna Das Goswami 2013-10-07 21:46
"As for "Mangina" it has many different meanings according to the context. It seems you didn't investigate that did you? In this context it means "men" who support feminism so that they can get praise form women in the hope of getting "favors" from them. Of course feminism is a low class and demonic mindset so naturally "manginas" -- men who support them -- are definitely crass and low class as you have pointed out but for a different reason."

Mataji, I have pointed out that this is a VAISHNAVA website and calling vaishnavas who are reading the site "manginas" is 100% in opposition to vaishnava culture, bhakti and Krishna.

Vaishnavas refer to each other as "prabhu", not "mangina".
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#114
0 Hare Krishna Das Goswami 2013-10-07 21:56
"It should however be clearly noted that Brahminical initiation is Vaidika diksa and only for men"

It is not vaishnava diksha.

Upanayanam is not merged with Gaudiya Vaishnava diksha outside of the Gaudiya Math and ISKCON.


" the other part of second initiation in which include the guru bija, guru gayatri, gaura bija and gaura gayatri and kama bija and kama gayatri mantras is available to everyone regardless of gender."

That is vaishnava diksha. Not "another part of second initiation".
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#115
0 Hare Krishna Das Goswami 2013-10-07 22:16
Shyama Prabhu (or Prabhvi/Mataji, since I don't know your gender), THANKYOU for answering my questions. I appreciate that you did so and the time it took to do so as well.

I noticed that you drew examples from a few sampradayas that do not worship Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. I respect all Vaishnavas but for my own understanding of the history of Gaudiya Vaishnavism and the traditions that arose therein, I draw my examples from Gaudiya Vaishnavas existent today and what they can tell me about their histories.

Upanayanam is not given at the time of diksha. Gaudiya Vaishnava gurus outside of ISKCON and the Gaudiya Math, for the most part, do not do give upanayanam to anyone.
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#116
+1 Hare Krishna Das Goswami 2013-10-07 22:39
Shyama,

Haribol, and again I thank you for your cultured engagement with me here. You mentioned that there are a few ISKCON gurus currently who are not giving savitri gayatri to female disciples. Who are they? Have they met with any opposition?
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#117
+2 Baladeva 2013-10-08 08:53
Quoting Hare Krishna Das Goswami:
"I agree with the others, you looked up the wrong definition for "mangina" in the feminist context."

I don't care bout any "definition for mangina" in any context.

This is a VAISHNAVA website.

Vaishnavas refer to each other as "prabhu", not "mangina".


"So it would seem that you should retract your statements and otherwise make amends"

I most certainly will not make amends for calling for vaisnava etiquette on a vaishnava website.



If you steal you will be called a thief no matter what your religious beliefs are.

So if you support feminism then you will be called a feminist or mangina because that will be an accurate description.
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#118
+3 Baladeva 2013-10-08 08:56
Quoting Hare Krishna Das Goswami:
"Your statement shows that you are grossly misinformed about MRAs and MGTOW

Find out about MRA's at .../M en%27 s_rig hts_m oveme nt

The MRA are concerned about a host of issues where rampant injustice to men is the current standard."

The mens' rights activists who are pushing for legal changes to unjust laws regarding custody and other matters are different from the online "manosphere" that claims some connection to them, and loosely calls themselves "MRA" and "MGTOW". In fact, the activists who are actually doing political activism do not want to be conflated with the manosphere or the armchair MRAs and MGTOWs associated with it.

I have read websites by all three of the above parties. While as a Vaishnava I do not participate in any sort of materially conceived "activism", I empathize with exploited men, women and children everywhere. However, we know that the Vaishnava solution to exploitation is in opposition to any material solution. While I empathize with victims, I do not support their materially motivated activism.

.....


.



That is all very well and good. But in the mean time feminist activists are definitely hard at work in ISKCON.
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#119
+2 shyama 2013-10-08 09:19
Quoting Hare Krishna Das Goswami:
Shyama Prabhu (or Prabhvi/Mataji, since I don't know your gender), THANKYOU for answering my questions. I appreciate that you did so and the time it took to do so as well.

I noticed that you drew examples from a few sampradayas that do not worship Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. I respect all Vaishnavas but for my own understanding of the history of Gaudiya Vaishnavism and the traditions that arose therein, I draw my examples from Gaudiya Vaishnavas existent today and what they can tell me about their histories.

Upanayanam is not given at the time of diksha. Gaudiya Vaishnava gurus outside of ISKCON and the Gaudiya Math, for the most part, do not do give upanayanam to anyone.


Gaudiya Vaisnavism was a sewer before Bhaktivinoda Thakura. To be called a vaisnava in Bengal was considered an insult in those times, because they were almost all sahajiyas.

Both Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Bhaktisiddhanta went to the trouble of translating and publishing the works of the other acharyas especially Madhva and Ramanuja. Bhaktisiddhnata brought a Sri Vaisnava pandita and Madhva Pandita to Navadvipa and had them instruct his disciples for 2 years about tattva and how to defeat mayavada and specifically told his disciples to study one book of Lokapillacarya (Sri vaisnava) because it succinctly described the process of Bhakti.

BVT said that Lord Caitanya sent BSST to fulfill two missions: establish Daivi Varnashrama Dharma and establish the pure chanting of the Holy Name. The latter is dependent on the former.

To establish Daivi Varnashrama BSST spent years researching from Sri Vaisnava sources, for example he learned about how to perform Sannyasa initiation from a Sri Vaisnava sannyasi in Sri Perembuder (birth place of Ramanuja Acarya) near Chennai.

Srila Prabhupada also wanted to establish Daivi Varnashrama Dharma. So what other Gaudiyas may do is of no concern to us. As Srila Prabhupada often said "ISKCON is meant to create a class of Brahmanas in society" Thus we give upanayanam.

Now for example, in Mayapura at the main gurukula they give young boys upanayanam at traditional age so that they can study the Veda. Then later they get panca samskara when they become Vaisnavas.

For more information about how BSST interacted and learned from the Sri Vaisnavas and other sampradayas in order to rescue Gaudiya Vaisnavism by reintroducing Daivi Varnashrama Dharma read "Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Vaibhava" by HH Bhakti Vikasa Swami.
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#120
0 shyama 2013-10-08 09:23
Quoting Hare Krishna Das Goswami:
Shyama,

Haribol, and again I thank you for your cultured engagement with me here. You mentioned that there are a few ISKCON gurus currently who are not giving savitri gayatri to female disciples. Who are they? Have they met with any opposition?


Since it is controversial I prefer not to say at this time.
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#121
+2 shyama 2013-10-08 09:47
Quoting Hare Krishna Das Goswami:
"It should however be clearly noted that Brahminical initiation is Vaidika diksa and only for men"

It is not vaishnava diksha.

Upanayanam is not merged with Gaudiya Vaishnava diksha outside of the Gaudiya Math and ISKCON.


" the other part of second initiation in which include the guru bija, guru gayatri, gaura bija and gaura gayatri and kama bija and kama gayatri mantras is available to everyone regardless of gender."

That is vaishnava diksha. Not "another part of second initiation".



I don't know what point you are trying to make. I clearly stated that there was a difference between upanayanam and panca samskara, and that in GM and ISKCON that for men 2nd initiation has the added feature of getting upanayam which is not there for women.

The upshot is that women are not brahmanas in their own right. It depends on the status of their male guardian. Something which is anathema to feminists.
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#122
+2 Atma 2013-10-08 16:05
@Hare Krishna Das Goswami

Hare Krsna. It is self evident that you hold members of the Men’s Right Movement (MRA & MGTOW) in utter contempt. And in text #94 you insulted a commenter by saying that they were like a member of a group that you despise. But when you are called out as being a “Mangina,” a male supporter of feminism –assuming of course that you are male—then you get bent out of shape and cry in outrage that Vaisnava etiquette has been breached.

It is safe to say that like 99.99% of feminists you are a hypocrite as well as a Mangina if you are male or just a plain feminist if you are female. And, that there is no use in discoursing with you.
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#123
+3 shyama 2013-10-08 16:10
Quoting Hare Krishna Das Goswami:


I noticed that you drew examples from a few sampradayas that do not worship Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. I respect all Vaishnavas but for my own understanding of the history of Gaudiya Vaishnavism and the traditions that arose therein, I draw my examples from Gaudiya Vaishnavas existent today and what they can tell me about their histories.


Because in the past most of the other sampradayas knew almost nothing of Lord Caitanya they didn't worship Him. But that is changing, I know senior members in the Sri Sampradaya who do accept Lord Caitanya as an incarnation of Lord Krsna. And, of course many members of the Sri and Madhva Sampradaya join ISKCON. So that suggest that they recognize Him as God. (-:

So it is just a matter of time and preaching. The more we preach the more they accept Him. So the onus is really up to us.
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#124
+2 Hare Krishna Das Goswami 2013-10-14 04:20
Thankyou for your kind reply, Shyama.

Making everyone brahmins is not establishing any sort of varnashrama, daivi or not. In a varnashrama culture not everyone is a brahmin. There are 3 other varnas too.

In Gaudiya Vaishnavism people who were born and raised brahmins often give up identifying as brahmins and give up chanting brahma gayatri once they take Vaishnava Diksha and commence the chanting of Vaishnava Diksha mantras.

Regardless of the era, even if the majority of vaishnavas are not "pure" there are always pockets of pure vaishnavas endeavoring sincerely to please the Lord.

I wouldn't call Gaudiya Vaishnavism now or before a "sewer", but I will say from personal experience in the here and now, there are some lotuses floating above the muddy waters of what passes as "bhakti" amongst the masses. I wouldn't expect the past to be very different.

Bhava bhakti is sudurlabha, afterall.
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#125
0 Hare Krishna Das Goswami 2013-10-14 04:21
"Since it is controversial I prefer not to say at this time."

They would be accused of deviating from Srila Prabhupada.
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#126
0 Jonathan 2015-08-31 00:17
Quoting Govinda Dasi:
Srila Prabhupada wanted, and wants, a worldwide society of Krishna Consciousness, for spreading the Yuga Dharma of the congregational chanting of the Holy Names of the Lord. Not a handful of angry, agitated men who sit on high chairs and foulmouth everyone else in the world--thinking they are God’s gift to humanity. And splitting hairs over who can do this and who can do that.

It is Lord Chaitanya’s prediction that the Holy Names will be chanted everywhere, so it will happen for certain. But perhaps because of attitudes and behaviors like this, the chanting of the Holy Names is now more widely propagated outside the corrupted walls of what you believe to be Iskcon.

Fortunately, Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon encompasses far, far more than what most people understand. And it will spread in spite of such modern day misunderstandings of what Srila Prabhupada taught.

Srila Prabhupada was loving and protective of all his disciples, both male and female. He taught humility, not arrogance. He tried to teach us to respect one another, as Vaishnavas and Vaishnavis, irrespective of age, gender, or other material designations. For this reason, he told us to address one another as Prabhu, whether male or female. The attitudes you have expressed herein are the antithesis of what Srila Prabhupada taught.

Please forgive my harsh words; they are only intended to awaken you to the fact that Srila Prabhupada wants his dear and most important disciples, like his sanyasins, to behave in a spiritually appropriate manner. You have a huge responsibility. You are supposed to be representing the greatest Master of our times, Srila Prabhupada. If you act in ways that are contrary to his mood and teachings, you will be doing a great disservice to humanity. And you will eventually suffer spiritual disconnection as so many others have experienced.

I wish you well, and hope you will take my words to heart, and not become angry and vengeful.

Your servant and Godsister,

In Srila Prabhupada’s seva,

Govinda Dasi. ACBSP


Jonathan says, " Existence is a very complex subject. However The Supreme Personality of Godhead says, 'Bhagavad Gita 10.4' so now the question is WHO ARE YOU? This body or THE ETERNAL SOUL? I KNOW WHO I AM. ARE YOU A MAN OR WOMAN? WHAT EXACTLY IS THE ETERNAL SOUL? DO YOU EVEN HAVE A CLUE AS TO WHAT MOTIVATED MANU TO EVEN UTTER HIS IDEAS?
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#127
0 Jonathan 2015-08-31 00:47
Quoting Shyama:
Here is something from Manu on the topic

“An unmarried girl, a youthful matron, an unread brahmana, one of small learning, one afflicted with disease, or uninitiated with the sacred thread must not perform the Agnihotra homa. For having cast such libations in the fire, these (unmarried girl, a youthful matron, etc.) shall go to hell, together with the person on whose behalf they do such fire-offerings; hence (only) a Brahmana well versed in the Vedas and in the art of performing such fire-offerings, shall act as a Hota (that is, offerer of the libation, or doer of the fire-offering.)” Manu 11.36-37

And,

“A Brahmana must never eat (a dinner given) at a sacrifice that is offered by one who is not a Srotriya, by one who sacrifices for a multitude of men, by a woman, or by a eunuch. When those persons offer sacrificial viands in the fire, it is unlucky for holy (men) it displeases the gods; let him therefore avoid it.” Manu 4.205-206.


What is this Unlucky? This is only a HIGH LEVEL OF IGNORANCE.Whom beings on earth lacking TRANSCENDENCE accept. Bhagavad Gita 4.2 . And now I ask, "Do You Comprehend what You take in?
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